NefMoto

I'm working on a car with an ECU that has no support for boost.  3.0 AVK w/widebands.

What i want to do is run the stock ME7.1 in parallel with a standalone.
I am not new to tuning, i am new to ME7.1 tuning.  I've read enough threads here
to know that that ECU will not like boost and be a general PITA. 

What i want to do is use the stock ecu to interface with the cluster, keep an eye on temp gauges and what not, and run the ABS/DBW etc.

What is the minimum input i can get away with to keep the stock ecu from being pissed off?
I will run separate sensors if i need to, but at some point i know i will need to turn some functionality off in the ME7.1 to keep the DBW working correctly at a minimum.  I did search but didn't see any threads that went into this type of setup.
Yeah i know there's $$$ ecus out there that will do this sort of thing as a full standalone and talk to the other car bits, but i prefer a  more DIY approach where i can learn more.

No threads because it's a waste of time, forget it.

Either find a full standalone or tune the stock ECU.

Are you gonna run a manual transmission?

I think MaxxEcu can run stock cluster, depends on car ofc. RACE variant support DBW also.

It is possible to implement what you want on the stock ecu among other things if you are willing to pay for it that is.

Curious. What would be the upper limit of boost you could run on a ECU that has no concept of boost? 0.1 psi, 1 psi? 2?

I would imagine 1 psi should be possible because atmospheric pressure can rise up to 1 psi, from 14.7 stock to 15.7.

You can implement PRJ's boost control, also convert to SD if no MAF is possible,  and also you can delete the upper load limit as that is the main limiter on non turbo ecus by default which means you cant even run wastegate pressure boost, unless you kill ME7's control or absolutely mess up the load by underscaling it so you got cushion.

Not many people will do this or can do it.

As much as you want.

Pressure is a measurement of restriction nothing more. Its about load, the ecu has a hard load cap that it can not (without being patched) go over.  You can run boost on a stock na ecu by patching these load limits or by underscaling the maf and keeping load limits below the capped value.

So the actual limit is how much air the ECU can measure, such as the maximum value of say load or airflow in the tables, and maybe even the MAF itself? And then maybe the limitation of the injectors and fuel pump pressure etc.

There are no software limitations in ME7 beyond a 100% hard load limit on some ECU's, that can be patched and 2560 absolute pressure, which can be rescaled to 5120.
Everything else is hardware. Yes obviously you're gonna need to do hardware mods, but I don't see how this is relevant whatsoever.

Take a step back and do some reading. What I told you already is more then what you would get from most as this is borderline spoon feeding. Also, just wanted to add that your ECU is also me7.1.1 not me7.1

No, my ECU is Denso. I was asking generally speaking about boost and the limits of an ECU which has no such concept. And yes, thank you for this information. I realize I may have threadjacked by asking these questions, but they are probably relevant for OP as well.

It's just that English is not my first language, so it takes a little longer to piece together the information and actually understand it.

It'll be a manual yes.

I'm the OP, my initial thoughts were to rescale all maps with load by 50% and move to a 5120 MAP, but at this point, it's starting to look like a full standalone makes more sense, if i can find something to control the cluster.  And if not, probably hack together a CAN controller with an arduino or something similar for glue.  I really prefer not to move to a digital dash unless i can't get anything working.

Not needed.
Not needed unless you want to run more than 1.5 bar boost.

But if you don't have a good grasp of ME7, then trying to turbo a NA ECU is not it for the first learning experience.
So yes, find a standalone ECU that has the CAN matrix support.

Without proper CAN support, besides the cluster, also say goodbye to ABS/ESP and automatic gearbox (if it's not manual).
ESP communication is two way, you are not going to hack together a controller for that when ECU has no concept of torque model.

I agree with your assessment that this task is probably too much for a first time ME7 project.  Keeping ABS would be nice but isn't necessary.  I expect this to be a fair weather car, so ESP loss isn't a huge deal as it's still AWD.

As far as the controller understanding boost, i'd seen previous comments that a NA ecu just doesn't understand boost.  Is that correct or not?

Frankly, if the 2.7T ecu understood the different VVT system on this engine, i'd just use that.  But it's nice that this car already has dual widebands. 

There is no boost control, but there is nothing stopping the ECU from reading pressure above ambient in the manifold. It's modelled from the MAF anyway.
It goes to 2560 mbar regardless of ECU.
The main issue is controlling the torque and also the logic of the ECU going WOT at the right time.

With a supercharger there is no issue at all. With a turbo stuff is more complicated because produced boost is not only a function of RPM.

Makes sense.  Good info.   thank you.

Ive messaged you saying I would help out with this project with boost control and more if needed but looks like you don't seem to acknowledge it.

Why do you think prj said what he said? Because this is a project maybe 5-10 people here can do properly specially one you didnt build.

You better learn  asm fast and be able to diassemble then.

sorry, i didn't see the message till just now.  I'm most likely going standalone as i have experience tuning, just not on ME7.1.  Developing the firmware in addition to tuning sounds like a very big job.  I don't even have the hardware developed yet, so it's a ways in the future.   The language barrier to German doesn't help either.   Not a native speaker.

I have to correct this as its bothering me... YOUR CAR IS ME7.1.1 NOT ME7.1!!!

Figured Id toss you a bone...

If it helps, i have an ecu for the same powertrain on a 2002.  Different ecu number.  I think only real difference is a return style fuel line.

Just a remainder that torsen centre diff car becomes 1 wheel drive when you lose 1 corner traction completely when you dont have functioning ABS unit. So it will be AWD system only when all wheels have same traction.

Well I hope you got the load caps addresses I posted. Too many freeloaders here, so I only had them up for a limited time.  ;)

What have you posted, only two load caps in whole file, is that all the trick?

  and how to hack the controller so that the abs works? on Tuareg 2.3l and me7.1 instead of 3.2 with me7.1.1 and abs does not work. how can abs work?

So with that comment i'm back to using a standalone for fueling/spark and oem 7.1.1 for everything else.
OR maybe i can use the standalone for dbw also, just trying to not piss off the abs/7.1.1 combo.

OR Blazius' route of re-writing the firmware to allow boost control/load control over 100%.

check fueltech ecu, its got frequency controller for the maf, sent protocol for the dbw and ignition bypass for retarding. maybe it helps

Forget it.
Forget it, unless standalone supports full can matrix.

Bullshit, you have zero knowlage how torsen work. And you never drive one on the limit

Huh? Ever broke a driveshaft in a torsen car? I have LOL

I think back to school with you.

Take a driveshaft (or break one) in any Torsen car and it's not going anywhere.
Only exception is the newer cars where you can break a rear drive shaft if there's a sport diff in the rear, as that's a blocking diff.

But front driveshaft or any driveshaft in a car without a sport diff and you're not going to go ANYWHERE.
Torsen multiplies torque. 100x0 is still 0.
The whole AWD after traction loss is done by using EDL in the ESP unit and grabbing the wheel that is slipping with the brake to distribute torque to other wheels. On newer cars it's super advanced too with rotor and brake pad surface temperature modelled.

Like others said, Torsen is torque biasing system (and in these gens of cars specially) which means if one of the wheels has 0 traction the other will have 0 too, and similar with front to back diff. This is why ABS and EDL is used to provide artifical torque so to say to the other side.

This is where most people misunderstand Torsen in these cars, they never lock without an actual locking differential.

as for OP you should probably mention the exact build of this car, Its supposed to be supercharged not turbo, (which IMO is a waste of time) with a 3.0T SC. The only way this will ever run anywhere near right is with stock ECU properly done like we discussed.

I can't belive you never dissamble or hold in hand torsen diff? I refuse to belive in that.

Yes in condition where one wheel have zero or  little above zero traction, (pure ice or wheel in air) you will have all torqure on that wheel.
But on road when car is move that is close to imposible scenario. Washers in torsen diff will never let torque to go in front or rear wheel 100%.  Bias is alwasy around 70:30%

Broken driveshaft have nothing comon how torsen work. Beacuse as I sad, when all wheels are spining there is load on tosren washers and that change game a lot.

But I feel dump that I need to explain that to you.

If all teory you guy say now is true, that will mean that quattro in all B4, C4,D2 is pure bull shit, that quattro without EDL/ESP is nonsense. But we all know that is not true.

Explain to me how old quattro have 1.7 sec 60 ft at 1/4 mile?

If you have right, that will mean at start one wheel will spin like car is FWD or RWD, try it you will see that is imposible!!!

I drive quattro for more than 10 years, 3 different cars without ABS, EDL, ESP or rear diff lock.
From drag to snow, back again  to track and normal road. And I feel dump to even discuse about this on this audi/WV forum

It has everything in common. If there is zero traction at one wheel, the one wheel will spin, and others will stand still. It's simple mathematics. The torsen differential is not capable of locking up like a LSD.
Jack up one corner of the car and turn the EDL off, the car can't move off the jack.
This is complete horseshit. Any situation where one wheel is lifted or driveshaft broken the car isn't going anywhere.

C4 and D2 already had EDL... And yes, the Audi Torsen based 4WD is completely useless offroad. That is why the Q7 did not use it, and instead a fully locking transfer case was developed.
Because there is some traction to that wheel. As soon as it spins, the total power transmitted to the ground becomes less due to that wheel spinning and it regains traction, because basically the system balancing itself. The wheel can not stay lifted. But the car accelerates much faster with EDL braking that wheel or a front LSD. All the fast drag cars used welded center diffs exactly for this reason back in the day. The 60ft time was 0.3-0.4s better with a welded diff.
The acceleration is much better with EDL. I even did some tests a long time ago with 2 wheels on ice and 2 wheels on tarmac. The difference in acceleration with EDL on was more than 2x.
You drive it for 10 years and you lack elementary knowledge about how the system works.
I guess it just goes to show time and time again, that you can take something apart and put it back together without having any clue how it works. Very true of engines as well - bolting it together does not make you a tuner or understand how any of the processes work inside.

But hey, keep digging an even bigger hole for yourself.

You really never broke a driveshaft on a quattro car? You haven't done shit in your life then lol. I probably broke a driveshaft before you had a license.
Btw the really old Audi cars did not use Torsen based 4wd. They had a manually locking diff in the center. Torsen was introduced in the late 80s.
And EDL was found on all D2 and also on A6/S6 C4. On all the non-EDL cars to get them unstuck in deep snow, so one wheel isn't just free spinning on front, it was needed to apply the brake and gas at same time, then you'd get some traction to the other wheels. Was still needed on the late C4 cars if you got really stuck because the EDL was pretty anemic on them.

But we don't talk about same conditions, whole time you talk about situation with zero traction(broken drive shaft/wheel in air)
I talk about real conditions on road, where one wheel will have less traction than others. Again I say less, not zero traction.
That is huge differenece, and I talk about snow or really slipery road on rain day.
I have driven tru all conditions with quattro, all types of snow,tarmac,mud and so on. Even on full slick tyres on rain at rear and regular tyres at front, even in that situation I didn't experience that one wheel is only spining. Most of torqe was transvered to real wheels, but car was never have behavier like it is RWD.

Beacuse as long as all wheels are turning(car is moving) there is close to imposible to transfer all power to one wheel. So I talk when you are driving, not when car is stuck in mud/snow or driving off road when one wheel will be lifted in air.

Yes driving it 10 years and dissasembling parts does not make me me that I know how tings works... but I tell you I don't talk about thing I have read on internet, but real sfuff from my experience and studying how all that works.

I was even driving on summer tyres in snow, still all wheels are spining.

If you don't belive me, make a test. Take you quattro to road with conditions of realy realy bad traction. Pull handbrake and drive car, sooner or later torsen will heat up and fail. That is proof it wants to transfer torque to real wheels.
Same will happen if car is in air and you pull handbrake, but beacuse is no traction, there is no torque transfer. As you say 100x0=0. But I repeat again zero traction and bad traction are not same tings. And make huge difference to torsen.

I have experince many times when ESP save my ass and driving on snow without EDL make car 30-40% worse to plow tru snow. But on 99% conditions where normal people drive will never experice one wheel spinning. That is my point

I apology, I didn't express myself clearly first time, this is true, but no way that will ever ever happen(that you will lose in corner completly traction to one wheel) that is why I said it is bullshit, sorry

This happens every time on launch. Without EDL or welded center diff the launch is shit on the torsen based system.
It also happens in hard turning on both gravel and tarmac. There without EDL you have insane understeer because the inner front wheel starts lifting and you have no traction.

No, you talk about an ideal road and driving in a straight line.

And again proof that you don't understand what you're on about. If you block a wheel then all the torque tries to go there. This is normal.
If you lift a wheel up and spin it, nothing is going to happen to the diff anytime soon.
In this case you can drive FWD. The limitations experienced are:
1. During hard cornering
2. Offroad
3. During hard launch.
4. Stuck in snow.

Happens ALL the time. Maybe if you drive like grandma on tarmac you don't have the problem, but then you also don't need AWD.

Also, no torsen based quattro can do this even with EDL.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hwz_qJKW0Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hwz_qJKW0Q)

Torsen based quattro AWD is shit without EDL or LSD in front and rear. That's why all the newer fast cars have a sport diff in the back, a different torque bias and very aggressive EDL.

I have quite good understanding of the limits of this generation t2 torsen without rear sport differential as I own b6 bex quattro  ;D (t3 centre diff systems work all the same, only difference is how sophisticated is the ABS unit software to compensate 3 open differentials). I have tested the system limits with deep snow on road and offroad in abandonned ski center. It is very good until you get stuck from bottom, snap axle or the EDL or ABS stops functioning, then you get immediately stuck when the speed is lost. Also in gravel it is almost useless if the EDL does not work in lower speeds, it will allways disengage EDL operation when your speed exceedes 80 km/h. Also in winter it is very easy to get to a situation where one corner has 0 traction even on plowed roads. Worst case scenario is when there have not rained in a while and you get dry spots where the traffic normally goes and if you have to some reason move bit side from the dry spot so the other side is on the snow/ice and other in dry and you have to stop in example to traffic lights and EDL is not working you are stuck there for a good. You can even leave it in gear and the engine wont stall even on idle and only one wheel is spinning  ;D did not find the good example video of this from youtube, because I dont remember the title. It was grey c5 and dash was lit like christmas tree  ;D luckily I have allways had working car and I have no brag about the system. It is great system for permanent AWD road car and the torque biasing is instant and infinite between the biasing ratio. The t2 starts from 50:50 split and the more tail happy t3 60:40 and this is the static split when all 4 corners have same traction.

I believe i said "boosted" in the original post. That encompasses either type of boost device.   the method of boost control is the issue i think. 
I just this minute got done with the 2.5" exhaust all the way to the rear.  Due to packaging in this platform, i believe i want to go supercharged.  I have zero issues with getting the hardware done.  I'm a powertrain engineer.  I've done this before for OEMs. Specifically engineering full supercharger packages for a V-engine that didn't have one before.   What i haven't done, is calibration of ME7.1.1 ecus.  That's why i'm here.

I can confirm this behavior.  I have been high-centered in the B6, in snow, it stopped moving.  I had to pull the car out of the snow to dry ground to get it to move again.