NefMoto

Technical => Tuning => Topic started by: nyet on July 30, 2013, 12:53:53 PM



Title: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: nyet on July 30, 2013, 12:53:53 PM
my KFMIRL and KFMIOP and they have been super happy campers.

Can you summarize your approach to tuning those maps?

Quote
The only time I know I've seen N249 problems was when I flashed someone a tune with the N249 coded out and he still had it lol, that acted like you describe. But a change in settings and he was good to go again.

Got any details? :)


Title: Big turbo IRL/IOP tuning
Post by: britishturbo on July 30, 2013, 12:56:00 PM
Can you summarize your approach to tuning those maps?

Got any details? :)

Sure.
When I get time tonight I'll post some screen shots of what I run for them.
I'm sure they will be "wrong" though haha, someone once said they were Impossible :-)


Title: Big turbo IRL/IOP tuning
Post by: nyet on July 30, 2013, 01:00:28 PM
Sure.
When I get time tonight I'll post some screen shots of what I run for them.
I'm sure they will be "wrong" though haha, someone once said they were Impossible :-)

just in case I wasn't clear: i'd rather understand your thought process than just see the end results :)


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP tuning
Post by: phila_dot on July 30, 2013, 02:53:21 PM
All of the details of how this works is already posted numerous times.

The rest is just logic and preference.

What kind of answer is everyone looking for?


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP tuning
Post by: nyet on July 30, 2013, 03:03:27 PM
Just wondering if he took a different approach... and IMO the surge problem is evident in big turbo tunes with tight wastegates regardless of IOP/IRL tweaking.

There is another thread which suggests tuning the throttle plate angle maps... (don't remember the map names off hand and I dont have an FR handy for reference).


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP tuning
Post by: prj on July 30, 2013, 03:12:26 PM
The throttle angle maps need to be set to reflect base boost as silentbob said.
So that FUEREG is active when it should be.


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP tuning
Post by: phila_dot on July 30, 2013, 03:26:25 PM
The issues are unrelated to the torque model.

The torque model is almost a seperate entity. Fast path intervention is on/off and controls ignition angle with zwsol. Slow path outputs a torque request for conversion to desired load via IRL.

If you don't have desired load problems below rlmax_w, then look beyond the torque model.


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP tuning
Post by: Snow Trooper on July 31, 2013, 12:08:01 PM
What issues do people seem to be having with IRL/IOP tuning on large frame turbos?  To generalize, these turbos exhibit two main characteristics.

First they lag compared to ko3/ko4 type turbos and or have slower on throttle boost response even in the spool zone.  So one could be safe to assume that you can really mellow out those ranges of these stock maps you are editing that are in full load on small frames.  Be realistic about your systems capability down low and don't ask for something it can't make.

Second, large frame turbos don't taper.  Some people taper them and that is just lame.  If you are going to do anything, taper that thing up.  I rise 5 full Psi on my pump files as the revs go up after the initial boost hit and spike so that the car just nevers stops pulling like a beast, holds good timing after peak tq, because that is what big turbos are supposed to feel like.  I see a lot of stuff that drops in boost for no reason.  Your turbo, if truely a large frame twin or single setup wants to do work on 2.7 liters and can handle it just fine.

Never neglect to have a LDRXN that makes sense too.  These are my thoughts on the matter, I think its really simple to have a huge turbo setup that still drives nice.  BTW, I have no n249, I have no issues because of this.



Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP tuning
Post by: nyet on July 31, 2013, 12:13:44 PM
What issues do people seem to be having with IRL/IOP tuning on large frame turbos?

I think the main point of contention seems to be surging during part throttle when the wg cracking pressure is well above req boost/load..


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP tuning
Post by: Snow Trooper on July 31, 2013, 12:22:10 PM
I run a 21 Psi gate and a near zero wgdc in areas that make sense too.  But in theory I can never run less than 21 Psi unless I control the throttle.  So I control the throttle by having a nice and linear set of throttle maps.  I don't feel I have these issue nor do other cars I have tuned.  Can someone post their logs of the behavior?

I am familiar with the feeling, some ots tunes do it when you run cranked wastegate rods, obviously.  Logs would be telling on throttle angle and such, so would the bin.

Maybe people arent really editing their maps enough on the very different than stock hardware and are still just trying to sort of italian tune stuff like you can do when you go from ko3s to ko4s.


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP tuning
Post by: prj on July 31, 2013, 02:41:19 PM
I run a 21 Psi gate and a near zero wgdc in areas that make sense too.  But in theory I can never run less than 21 Psi unless I control the throttle.  So I control the throttle by having a nice and linear set of throttle maps.

You don't control the throttle, FUEREG does.


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP tuning
Post by: nyet on July 31, 2013, 02:45:06 PM
Prj: any chance i can get you to discuss "base boost" vs pu?

my bad german is not serving me well right about now.


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP tuning
Post by: prj on July 31, 2013, 02:52:35 PM
First you need to find out whether plgrus_w is equal to pu_w or whether it's mapped from factory.
The RS4 K-box for example has plgrus_w equal to spring pressure, and then the entire boost control dances around that.

I find it a PITA to tune, so I hacked the binary to have plgrus_w = pu_w like it is done on the S4.

After that, you need to tune KFVPDKSD and KFVPDKSE to have values lower than PSPVDKUG (just a little lower is enough) in the areas that are below the spring boost of the turbos. Otherwise the ECU goes WOT when it shouldn't and you get massive throttle cut on part throttle and kangarooing.


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP tuning
Post by: prj on July 31, 2013, 04:48:01 PM
To elaborate why I said the driver does not control the throttle - it is because wped_w, mifa_w nor rlsol_w have much say in this.

rlsol is simply the input to the throttle setpoint algorithm FUEDK, which is based on KFWDKMSN.
After the initial setpoint, the throttle angle is controlled by FUEREG, which is closed loop feedback control.
FUEDK and FUEREG are heavily affected by LDRPLS - LDRPLS basically tells it whether it needs full throttle to reach target filling or not (req boost below spring boost or not).
Get this wrong and it overshoots it's throttle control all the time. Nothing to do with what is requested - the ECU is not able to deliver request correctly. Like it can not accurately deliver boost without recalibrating boost PID.

Even if rlsol_w is constant, the throttle will open up and then close down as acceleration of the engine is not instantaneous, and on a turbo engine you also have the inertia of the turbocharger(s).
KFMIOP, KFMIRL, KFPED and so on mainly affect how the engine reacts to "gas pedal" inputs, but have little effect on the movement of the throttle.

And that's exactly why I said the driver does not control the throttle. The driver only requests torque. The ECU then calculates throttle plate angle and other parameters to deliver said torque.
I would go in as far as to say that IOP, IRL and KFPED can be left mostly stock, if you want the car to feel stock (within limitations due to turbocharger spool characteristics) in the lower end of the scale. The main modification that needs to be done there is making sure that enough load is requested.

What needs to be recalibrated for the turbocharger are LDRPLS (for specifying base charge pressure) as well as KFWDKMSN (and it's inverse map), so that FUEDK has a rough idea of what it is doing before feedback control kicks in.


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP tuning
Post by: nyet on July 31, 2013, 05:42:04 PM

FUEDK and FUEREG are heavily affected by LDRPLS - LDRPLS basically tells it whether it needs full throttle to reach target filling or not (req boost below spring boost or not).

Thank you. That is the most concise explanation of FUEDK/FUEREG i've seen so far.

Quote
I would go in as far as to say that IOP, IRL and KFPED can be left mostly stock, if you want the car to feel stock (within limitations due to turbocharger spool characteristics) in the lower end of the scale. The main modification that needs to be done there is making sure that enough load is requested.

Excellent. I've always felt this way intuitively. Glad to hear you confirm it.

Quote
What needs to be recalibrated for the turbocharger are LDRPLS (for specifying base charge pressure) as well as KFWDKMSN (and it's inverse map), so that FUEDK has a rough idea of what it is doing before feedback control kicks in.

Thanks. I have edited the thread topic accordingly. By inverse map, do you mean the cruise control map (KFWPFGR)?

Also, how do you feel about italian tuning KFWDKSMX, assuming IRL and LDRPLS are calibrated correctly?


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP tuning
Post by: ddillenger on July 31, 2013, 05:47:40 PM

Thanks. I have edited the thread topic accordingly. By inverse map, do you mean the cruise control map (KFWPFGR)?


Nye: The inverse of KFWDKMSN is KFMSNWDK. Take a look at them, you'll quickly spot the relationship.


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP tuning
Post by: nyet on July 31, 2013, 05:51:57 PM
Nye: The inverse of KFWDKMSN is KFMSNWDK. Take a look at them, you'll quickly spot the relationship.

LOL. Too late. I just did that :)

oh, and i was just making a g/sec dup map for it as well ..

Thanks though heh.


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: ddillenger on July 31, 2013, 06:06:16 PM
PRJ/Anyone:

Am I correct in tweaking MSNWDK until calculated airflow=measured airflow, then adjusting WDKMSN, or is there more to it?


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: prj on July 31, 2013, 06:10:43 PM
You can do it either way.
Another way is to disconnect the MAF and tweak those maps until your mixture is more or less on target.

KFWDKSMX - I just max it right after idle.
It is used to make the car feel smoother and reduce noise. Probably the exact opposite of what you want when you slap a big turbo on your car.


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: ddillenger on July 31, 2013, 06:18:22 PM
KFWDKSMX - I just max it right after idle.
It is used to make the car feel smoother and reduce noise. Probably the exact opposite of what you want when you slap a big turbo on your car.

This is what I'd been doing after noting this is how it's done in NA applications. Nye and I just had this discussion yesterday.


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: nyet on July 31, 2013, 06:21:22 PM
disconnect the MAF and tweak those maps until your mixture is more or less on target.

Which has another wonderful side benefit? :)


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: ddillenger on July 31, 2013, 06:35:36 PM
Which has another wonderful side benefit? :)

If your MAF fails shit doesn't get REAL weird when these are right.


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: prj on August 01, 2013, 03:28:04 AM
Yawn...
The problem is people who think they know passing things on as fact, and then getting all pissed off when pointed out that their information is incorrect.

Anyhow, I think the misinformation has been put right here, and there is correct information for having butter smooth part throttle on high pre-load wastegates.
The same strategy can be applied when turbocharging a NA car with MBC and so on. The important thing is to understand that the torque model and drivers wish do not control the throttle, only filling request and after that everything else makes sense.


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: britishturbo on August 01, 2013, 08:36:11 AM
Thanks for the nice explanation of things prj.

I don't know that I've done anything any different or not, I don't think so given that most of what I know has come from here. But I do know my car doesn't have the problems I've seen in others tunes and my single turbo setup behaves just as Snow Trooper is describing.
I will post some screen shots of my current settings though just for posterity.


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: britishturbo on August 01, 2013, 08:52:16 AM
Rightly or wrongly this is what I have on my car:

(http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q755/britishturbo/tunerpro-r16-settings_zps0970e2a6.png) (http://s1357.photobucket.com/user/britishturbo/media/tunerpro-r16-settings_zps0970e2a6.png.html)

And Snow Trooper: I'm the same as you, if anything on pump gas tunes I ramp boost up as redline approaches not down.


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: britishturbo on August 01, 2013, 08:53:41 AM
And this is from the drive to work this morning (no nitrous - 6466 ftw!):

(http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q755/britishturbo/6466-198-fats_zps46a0e3c4.png) (http://s1357.photobucket.com/user/britishturbo/media/6466-198-fats_zps46a0e3c4.png.html)


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: julex on August 01, 2013, 05:55:20 PM
Prj, thanks for the explanation. I will try to wrap my mind around it but would you mind giving me a quick tip here? Would I re-define vpssplg_w axis to suit my turbo more instead of stock max of 1.60?


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: prj on August 02, 2013, 01:00:20 AM
Prj, thanks for the explanation. I will try to wrap my mind around it but would you mind giving me a quick tip here? Would I re-define vpssplg_w axis to suit my turbo more instead of stock max of 1.60?

Correct.


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: britishturbo on August 02, 2013, 11:29:37 AM
Julex I did some testing with my new turbo which spools a lot lot quicker than the previous one.
I still have zero part throttle surging issues at lower than wastegate pressure.
I can hold 10 or 15psi part throttle without any issue.

Just an fyi bud.


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: julex on August 02, 2013, 12:26:35 PM
Julex I did some testing with my new turbo which spools a lot lot quicker than the previous one.
I still have zero part throttle surging issues at lower than wastegate pressure.
I can hold 10 or 15psi part throttle without any issue.

Just an fyi bud.

It is probably my set up specific. I see that I am getting turbo stutter (surging) when I go light-medium part throttle and car gets too excited with throttle and allows boost up to say 15psi and then rapidly cuts off throttle to bring boost down so that load matches limit.

At this point of time, say at 5psi, the turbos start stuttering/surging in waves, cha, cha, cha, cha in sometimes run-away fashion (amplifying with each cycle). I see in logs exactly what is  happening...

PRJ's insight into the throttle regulation FUEREG will allow me to properly tune this problem by making car aware that wastegates cracking pressure is much higher than it thinks it is.

I don't have problems if I request hefty amount of load to begin with, like gas pedal deep in so that I reach 15psi for example. No surging then.

I just want a car super smooth in all load points with no on-off switch 95% of 2.7t tuned engines provide...


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: julex on August 02, 2013, 12:29:16 PM
Correct.

Cool, I see what you were saying. Around 1.40 pressure ratio (6psi, stock WG cracking pressure) is where some cells start exceeding PSPVDKUG threshold. I will take my 21psi, which is 2.44 pressure ration and scale  vpssplg_w axis by 2.44/1.40 ratio and take it from there.

Beer on me  :-*


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: britishturbo on August 02, 2013, 12:29:31 PM
It is probably my set up specific. I see that I am getting turbo stutter (surging) when I go light-medium part throttle and car gets too excited with throttle and allows boost up to say 15psi and then rapidly cuts off throttle to bring boost down so that load matches limit.

At this point of time, say at 5psi, the turbos start stuttering/surging in waves, cha, cha, cha, cha in sometimes run-away fashion (amplifying with each cycle). I see in logs exactly what is  happening...

PRJ's insight into the throttle regulation FUEREG will allow me to properly tune this problem by making car aware that wastegates cracking pressure is much higher than it thinks it is.

I don't have problems if I request hefty amount of load to begin with, like gas pedal deep in so that I reach 15psi for example. No surging then.

I just want a car super smooth in all load points with no on-off switch 95% of 2.7t tuned engines provide...

You want me to take a look at your file and see if I see anything that I could help with?
I have seen frankenturbo cars do just that what you describe on "someones" tune... I flashed one of my tunes on and it went away.


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: julex on August 02, 2013, 12:37:35 PM
You want me to take a look at your file and see if I see anything that I could help with?
I have seen frankenturbo cars do just that what you describe on "someones" tune... I flashed one of my tunes on and it went away.

Thanks but I hope I finally have the solution to this. If not, I will take you on the offer, maybe you can tell me what stupid things I did  ;)


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: britishturbo on August 02, 2013, 12:40:12 PM
Thanks but I hope I finally have the solution to this. If not, I will take you on the offer, maybe you can tell me what stupid things I did  ;)

Let me know... often a fresh pair of eyes can see something you overlooked!


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: julex on August 03, 2013, 06:22:27 PM
prj, hats off for you mate.

After tweaking KFVPDKSD/E maps (as well as WDKUGDN, KFWDKMSN, KFMSNWDK) my car in finally super smooth. I can reach any boost I want, from 0 to 34 by simply pressing pedal appropriately deep enough without weird overshoots or throttle cuts etc. Previously my car was either light load (below 1psi) or wot, anything in between was a lottery, it would either reach and sustain (most of times after overboost and TC) or start doing stupid stuff.

Cheers.


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: britishturbo on August 03, 2013, 06:27:46 PM
prj, hats off for you mate.

After tweaking KFVPDKSD/E maps (as well as WDKUGDN, KFWDKMSN, KFMSNWDK) my car in finally super smooth. I can reach any boost I want, from 0 to 34 by simply pressing pedal appropriately deep enough without weird overshoots or throttle cuts etc. Previously my car was either light load (below 1psi) or wot, anything in between was a lottery, it would either reach and sustain (most of times after overboost and TC) or start doing stupid stuff.

Cheers.

Glad you got it working well!
I'll have to take a look at those maps.

I don't have WDKUGDN or KSMSNWDK in any of my xdfs though, what do you have for their locations and settings if you don't mind?


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: julex on August 03, 2013, 06:48:36 PM
I use PRJ's XDF whenever I am missing something, just FIY. The one he programmatically generated from euro OLS and inferred map locations in M-box. There are some things off in it but not hard to fix when time comes.

WDKUGDN:

Code:
 <XDFTABLE uniqueid="0x14B56" flags="0x0">
    <title>WDKUGDN - Throttle angle for free flow (adjust for bigger throttle!)</title>
    <description>Defines throttle angle beyond which there is no free-flow restriction.&#013;&#010;&#013;&#010;Adjust for bigger throttle rougly by area increase of throttle.</description>
    <CATEGORYMEM index="0" category="5" />
    <XDFAXIS id="x" uniqueid="0x0">
      <EMBEDDEDDATA mmedelementsizebits="16" mmedmajorstridebits="-32" mmedminorstridebits="0" />
      <indexcount>1</indexcount>
      <datatype>0</datatype>
      <unittype>0</unittype>
      <DALINK index="0" />
      <LABEL index="0" value="0.00" />
      <MATH equation="X">
        <VAR id="X" />
      </MATH>
    </XDFAXIS>
    <XDFAXIS id="y" uniqueid="0x0">
      <EMBEDDEDDATA mmedelementsizebits="16" mmedmajorstridebits="-32" mmedminorstridebits="0" />
      <indexcount>12</indexcount>
      <embedinfo type="3" linkobjid="0x100A4" />
      <datatype>0</datatype>
      <unittype>0</unittype>
      <DALINK index="0" />
      <MATH equation="X">
        <VAR id="X" />
      </MATH>
    </XDFAXIS>
    <XDFAXIS id="z">
      <EMBEDDEDDATA mmedtypeflags="0x02" mmedaddress="0x14B56" mmedelementsizebits="16" mmedrowcount="12" mmedmajorstridebits="0" mmedminorstridebits="0" />
      <decimalpl>2</decimalpl>
      <min>0.000000</min>
      <max>255.000000</max>
      <outputtype>1</outputtype>
      <MATH equation="-0.000000+X*0.001526">
        <VAR id="X" />
      </MATH>
    </XDFAXIS>
  </XDFTABLE>
  <XDFTABLE uniqueid="0x100A4" flags="0x0">
    <title>SNM12FEUB - RPMs for  WDKSMX, WDKUGDN</title>
    <CATEGORYMEM index="0" category="5" />
    <XDFAXIS id="x" uniqueid="0x0">
      <EMBEDDEDDATA mmedelementsizebits="16" mmedmajorstridebits="-32" mmedminorstridebits="0" />
      <indexcount>1</indexcount>
      <datatype>0</datatype>
      <unittype>0</unittype>
      <DALINK index="0" />
      <LABEL index="0" value="0.00" />
      <MATH equation="X">
        <VAR id="X" />
      </MATH>
    </XDFAXIS>
    <XDFAXIS id="y" uniqueid="0x0">
      <EMBEDDEDDATA mmedelementsizebits="16" mmedmajorstridebits="-32" mmedminorstridebits="0" />
      <indexcount>12</indexcount>
      <datatype>0</datatype>
      <unittype>0</unittype>
      <DALINK index="0" />
      <LABEL index="0" value="0.00" />
      <LABEL index="1" value="0.00" />
      <LABEL index="2" value="0.00" />
      <LABEL index="3" value="0.00" />
      <LABEL index="4" value="0.00" />
      <LABEL index="5" value="0.00" />
      <LABEL index="6" value="0.00" />
      <LABEL index="7" value="0.00" />
      <LABEL index="8" value="0.00" />
      <LABEL index="9" value="0.00" />
      <LABEL index="10" value="0.00" />
      <LABEL index="11" value="0.00" />
      <MATH equation="X">
        <VAR id="X" />
      </MATH>
    </XDFAXIS>
    <XDFAXIS id="z">
      <EMBEDDEDDATA mmedaddress="0x100A4" mmedelementsizebits="8" mmedrowcount="12" mmedmajorstridebits="0" mmedminorstridebits="0" />
      <decimalpl>1</decimalpl>
      <min>0.000000</min>
      <max>255.000000</max>
      <outputtype>1</outputtype>
      <MATH equation="-0.000000+X*40.000000">
        <VAR id="X" />
      </MATH>
    </XDFAXIS>
  </XDFTABLE>

KFMSNWDK:

Code:
 <XDFTABLE uniqueid="0x0" flags="0x0">
    <title>KFMSNWDK</title>
    <description>Normalized mass flow over DK</description>
    <CATEGORYMEM index="0" category="5" />
    <XDFAXIS id="x" uniqueid="0x0">
      <EMBEDDEDDATA mmedtypeflags="0x02" mmedaddress="0x1469A" mmedelementsizebits="16" mmedcolcount="6" mmedmajorstridebits="16" mmedminorstridebits="0" />
      <units>U/min</units>
      <indexcount>6</indexcount>
      <decimalpl>3</decimalpl>
      <embedinfo type="1" />
      <datatype>0</datatype>
      <unittype>0</unittype>
      <DALINK index="0" />
      <MATH equation="0.250000 * X">
        <VAR id="X" />
      </MATH>
    </XDFAXIS>
    <XDFAXIS id="y" uniqueid="0x0">
      <EMBEDDEDDATA mmedtypeflags="0x02" mmedaddress="0x1467A" mmedelementsizebits="16" mmedcolcount="16" mmedmajorstridebits="16" mmedminorstridebits="0" />
      <units>%</units>
      <indexcount>16</indexcount>
      <decimalpl>3</decimalpl>
      <embedinfo type="1" />
      <datatype>0</datatype>
      <unittype>0</unittype>
      <DALINK index="0" />
      <MATH equation="0.001526 * X">
        <VAR id="X" />
      </MATH>
    </XDFAXIS>
    <XDFAXIS id="z">
      <EMBEDDEDDATA mmedtypeflags="0x02" mmedaddress="0x146A6" mmedelementsizebits="16" mmedrowcount="16" mmedcolcount="6" mmedmajorstridebits="0" mmedminorstridebits="0" />
      <units>kg/h</units>
      <decimalpl>2</decimalpl>
      <min>0.000000</min>
      <max>255.000000</max>
      <outputtype>1</outputtype>
      <MATH equation="0.100000 * X">
        <VAR id="X" />
      </MATH>
    </XDFAXIS>
  </XDFTABLE>


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: prj on August 05, 2013, 01:45:53 PM
prj, hats off for you mate.

After tweaking KFVPDKSD/E maps (as well as WDKUGDN, KFWDKMSN, KFMSNWDK) my car in finally super smooth. I can reach any boost I want, from 0 to 34 by simply pressing pedal appropriately deep enough without weird overshoots or throttle cuts etc. Previously my car was either light load (below 1psi) or wot, anything in between was a lottery, it would either reach and sustain (most of times after overboost and TC) or start doing stupid stuff.

Cheers.

As it should be...
It's the little things that make all the difference, and it's the little things that take the most time.
Anyone can map a car to run with the pedal to the floor, but it takes quite a bit of effort to make it feel like a normal vehicle in day-to-day activities.
In the world of dyno plot e-peen waggling people often forget this.


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: julex on August 06, 2013, 08:20:46 AM
As it should be...
It's the little things that make all the difference, and it's the little things that take the most time.
Anyone can map a car to run with the pedal to the floor, but it takes quite a bit of effort to make it feel like a normal vehicle in day-to-day activities.
In the world of dyno plot e-peen waggling people often forget this.

You're absolutely right. I've seen so many great dyno plots when the car barely idles and/or drives like crap in any other than WOT area.


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: Snow Trooper on August 08, 2013, 07:58:13 PM
http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=1059.0title=



Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: julex on August 09, 2013, 06:48:17 AM
http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=1059.0title=



And what turbos, intake, etc? Looks to me like small intake and relatively small turbos with low wastegate cracking pressure? (but for that I would have to see kfldrl/kfldimx table ofc).


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: Snow Trooper on August 09, 2013, 08:59:53 AM
That particular file is on a car with a big single, RS4/2.8 intake stuff and a 21 Psi gate that becomes 23 Psi through the n75 at no duty cycle.  Runs very smooth and predictably.

Edit, why do you think small intake?


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: julex on August 09, 2013, 11:56:56 AM
Edit, why do you think small intake?

Stock IM with stock throttle mainly.


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: Snow Trooper on August 09, 2013, 12:09:42 PM
Look closer, stock values are higher on the air flow over throttle plate.  It's scaled down from RS4.

Also some values go down for the larger tb as opposed to up.



Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: Rabbid on September 02, 2013, 06:38:33 AM
Interesting reading, had a car come to me at the weekend with a 25psi crack pressure on the actuator when we tested it though would run about 17psi at 0% duty.

Had some interesting issues with the car shutting the throttle once we raised the boost up. Will do some more research next time I see the car and report back.


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: nyet on September 02, 2013, 10:30:39 AM
Had some interesting issues with the car shutting the throttle once we raised the boost up

Just to make sure we're on the right page: this thread is not about throttle cut during WOT.


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP tuning
Post by: automan001 on September 09, 2013, 07:24:52 AM
I hacked the binary to have plgrus_w = pu_w like it is done on the S4.
To have the same hack in ME 7.5, is it enough to switch on bit 0 in CWPLGU?
How should KFVPDKSD/E be adjusted if plgrus_w calculation path KFPLGUB, KFDPLGU, KFWPLGTA stays enabled? I mean how values should be adjusted, does the rule with playing around PSPVDKUG value stays the same?


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP tuning
Post by: prj on September 12, 2013, 05:58:51 AM
To have the same hack in ME 7.5, is it enough to switch on bit 0 in CWPLGU?
Yes.
Quote
How should KFVPDKSD/E be adjusted if plgrus_w calculation path KFPLGUB, KFDPLGU, KFWPLGTA stays enabled? I mean how values should be adjusted, does the rule with playing around PSPVDKUG value stays the same?

Basically it should be <0.95 if the axis is <1


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP tuning
Post by: 20VTMK1 on September 29, 2013, 12:35:30 PM
LOL. Too late. I just did that :)

oh, and i was just making a g/sec dup map for it as well ..

Thanks though heh.

Hi Nyet ,

I seem to have a partially closed throttle up till 3000 rpm , 83 g/s and 1700 mb boost. After this point , I get 100 %,

I assumed its due to KFWDKMSN and KFMSNWDK , however the vaues within these two maps don't sdeem to make sense to me - any input as to the airflow vs plate position . ECU is 8N0 906018 , BAM . The max airflow is 1980 kg/h which is 549 g/s

Please help to understand ,


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP tuning
Post by: ddillenger on September 29, 2013, 12:51:08 PM
Hi Nyet ,

I seem to have a partially closed throttle up till 3000 rpm , 83 g/s and 1700 mb boost. After this point , I get 100 %,

I assumed its due to KFWDKMSN and KFMSNWDK , however the vaues within these two maps don't sdeem to make sense to me - any input as to the airflow vs plate position . ECU is 8N0 906018 , BAM . The max airflow is 1980 kg/h which is 549 g/s

Please help to understand ,

KFWDKSMX

Maximum throttle plate angle.


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: 20VTMK1 on September 29, 2013, 02:23:04 PM
Wow - Thanks , one problem sorted at least.

Thanks for the help


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP tuning
Post by: 20VTMK1 on October 01, 2013, 01:39:37 PM
ECU is 8N0 906018 , BAM . The max airflow is 1980 kg/h which is 549 g/s for KFWDKMSN

I did some investigation , Am I correct in saying Target Air mass = corrected cyl charge (corrected load) x umsrln_w

I came short with umsrln_w  , is this some sort of constant or factor ?



Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: 20VTMK1 on October 01, 2013, 01:48:27 PM
Cool, I see what you were saying. Around 1.40 pressure ratio (6psi, stock WG cracking pressure) is where some cells start exceeding PSPVDKUG threshold. I will take my 21psi, which is 2.44 pressure ration and scale  vpssplg_w axis by 2.44/1.40 ratio and take it from there.

Beer on me  :-*

In my case , all the cells exceed PSPVDKUG (0.95) . KFVPDSKD starts at 0.962 and goes up - I assume the "dynamic" means accelerating ?
KFVPDKSE however starts at 0.94 ,"stationary " so in steady state ?

Please assist - this is driving me nuts ..

Thank you in advance . 


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: julex on October 02, 2013, 06:38:04 AM
In my case , all the cells exceed PSPVDKUG (0.95) . KFVPDSKD starts at 0.962 and goes up - I assume the "dynamic" means accelerating ?
KFVPDKSE however starts at 0.94 ,"stationary " so in steady state ?

Please assist - this is driving me nuts ..

Thank you in advance . 

I am not sure what to tell you... but if you know your current and stock wastegate cracking pressure then just divide one by the other, you will get some ratio (larger than 1). Take that ratio and multiply pressure AXIS values (you will have to create a new table with just these to be able to edit them) by it. The resulting KFVPDSKD/KFVPDSKE will look identical as far as cells go but the PR axis will have the new pressure ratios now. Not perfect since turbos probably respond differently but much better than stock.


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: 20VTMK1 on October 02, 2013, 01:21:48 PM
Thanks JuleX ,

That's exactly what I did .

Now to do more digging to try and decipher this further.

Any idea on how to calc the estimated air mas ?

Thanks


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP tuning
Post by: 20VTMK1 on October 03, 2013, 01:09:50 PM
Yes.
Basically it should be <0.95 if the axis is <1

PRJ ,

Greetings,

Is it safe to assume that if CWPLGU is set to zero , then it is not active , i.e not active , plgrus_w calculation path KFPLGUB, KFDPLGU, KFWPLGTA is disabled ?


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: 20VTMK1 on October 03, 2013, 02:08:00 PM
I am not sure what to tell you... but if you know your current and stock wastegate cracking pressure then just divide one by the other, you will get some ratio (larger than 1). Take that ratio and multiply pressure AXIS values (you will have to create a new table with just these to be able to edit them) by it. The resulting KFVPDSKD/KFVPDSKE will look identical as far as cells go but the PR axis will have the new pressure ratios now. Not perfect since turbos probably respond differently but much better than stock.
interesting find , in the 8N0906081BQ ecu , PDKSE and PDKSD are different . PDKSD is stated for response and is higher than values in PDKSE in this ECU (perhaps for higher altitudes - makes the ratio larger ???)
8n0906018 CB however has PDKSE and PDKSD the same .

Now , I see what you say above , however if you apply a new ratio to the entire axis , wont you basically take away the zones that are less than 1 ? The contrary to that is the fact that the wastegate spring is now substantially stronger , so how is boost controlled with no n75 DC at light loads ? N249 ? Throttle plate ?

I hope I explained my self properly - just my thoughts .

Thanks


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: julex on October 04, 2013, 06:26:57 AM
interesting find , in the 8N0906081BQ ecu , PDKSE and PDKSD are different . PDKSD is stated for response and is higher than values in PDKSE in this ECU (perhaps for higher altitudes - makes the ratio larger ???)
8n0906018 CB however has PDKSE and PDKSD the same .

Now , I see what you say above , however if you apply a new ratio to the entire axis , wont you basically take away the zones that are less than 1 ? The contrary to that is the fact that the wastegate spring is now substantially stronger , so how is boost controlled with no n75 DC at light loads ? N249 ? Throttle plate ?

I hope I explained my self properly - just my thoughts .

Thanks

Throttle plate. It moderates the angle to get a desired flow/load. I see it all the time on my car since I log both pre throttle and post throttle boost sensors. In part throttle, I see say 1200mbar pre-throttle, throttle moderates to some low angle and past throttle I have 900mbar (slight vacuum).





Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP tuning
Post by: prj on October 24, 2013, 05:17:14 AM
PRJ ,

Greetings,

Is it safe to assume that if CWPLGU is set to zero , then it is not active , i.e not active , plgrus_w calculation path KFPLGUB, KFDPLGU, KFWPLGTA is disabled ?

If CWPLGU is zero, then plgrus_w = pu_w. Nothing less, nothing more.


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: amerol0601 on October 24, 2013, 09:20:47 AM
Would most if not all of this apply to 1.8t applications as well? Pardon my noobness. Im wondering if, since with Frankenturbo's they use such stiff springs eerily similar to descriptions here of the BT guys, this could be looked into for myself as a resolution. Similar to another member's post my part throttle application snaps too and fluctuates as well until WOT.

Mostly my question is are these maps available in most 1.8t ecu's as well, similar to the s4?


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: P.A.T. on November 01, 2013, 10:48:54 PM
Hi Guys,

Great read. Very interesting info learned. Thanks.


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP tuning
Post by: maZer.GTi on November 02, 2013, 10:07:37 AM
Hi Nyet ,

I seem to have a partially closed throttle up till 3000 rpm , 83 g/s and 1700 mb boost. After this point , I get 100 %,

I assumed its due to KFWDKMSN and KFMSNWDK , however the vaues within these two maps don't sdeem to make sense to me - any input as to the airflow vs plate position . ECU is 8N0 906018 , BAM . The max airflow is 1980 kg/h which is 549 g/s

Please help to understand ,

The Max airflow contains the 200kg/h offset. Dont forget this. :)


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: BenR on November 11, 2013, 11:20:31 PM
Good info


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP tuning
Post by: 20VTMK1 on November 18, 2013, 12:52:11 PM
If CWPLGU is zero, then plgrus_w = pu_w. Nothing less, nothing more.

The same for plgru_w ? Seems as if the CWPLGU is also setting the bit for this .

So could this be why in my case KFVPDSKD exceeds PSPVDKUG (0.95) . KFVPDSKD starts at 0.962 and goes up to more than 1. CWPLGU is set to zero

Thank you PRJ


Title: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: catbed on March 11, 2014, 10:24:56 PM
bumping this back up, revisiting tuning KFVPDSKD/E in my BT 1.8t. I have rescaled the vpssplg axis to reflect my wastegate spring pressure, but throttle plate angle seems to be confused still.

EDIT: After some more logging and reading, I seem to have cured the problem.


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: em.Euro.R18 on June 01, 2014, 01:12:21 PM
For the time being I'm stuck with maestro eurodyne until I get a bench flash setup. For some reason PSPVDKUG is given in the editor, can I compare difference between stock and new crack pressure and apply that to PSPVDKUG? I feel like I already know the answer but I'd like to hear it from someone who is familiar with these maps because I am not.


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: ddillenger on June 01, 2014, 01:28:08 PM
The eeprom can be read via OBD. The ecu can be written via OBD. You do not need a bench flasher.


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: julex on June 04, 2014, 10:40:32 AM
The eeprom can be read via OBD. The ecu can be written via OBD. You do not need a bench flasher.

He needs it for Eurodyno maestro that disables read/write without authorization from the cable or somehting like that. It is just easier to nuke it via galletto/etc with stock tune and tune from scratch than screw around trying to circumvent their protection.


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: ddillenger on June 04, 2014, 04:41:59 PM
Since noone has posted any visuals yet:

Here is an illustration of the results of properly setting up KFWDKMSN and MSNWDK on a big turbo A4. This car has a 50 trim, S4 throttle body and a very large SEM intake manifold. You can see how far off the calculated value was prior to tuning. If the MAF failed, it certainly would not have driven well.

Before:

(http://i.imgur.com/YO3cSrC.png)

After:

(http://i.imgur.com/5d8ONyB.png)

I could have spent more time here, but I was satisfied.


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: nyet on June 04, 2014, 04:47:52 PM
i wish winols/tunerpro had an interpolate function


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: phila_dot on June 04, 2014, 05:10:05 PM
i wish winols/tunerpro had an interpolate function

Tunerpro does have an interpolate function


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: nyet on June 06, 2014, 11:22:18 AM
hmm maybe i have an old version. haven't updated it in years.


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on June 06, 2014, 11:38:50 AM
i wish winols/tunerpro had an interpolate function

So many times I've asked my self why winols doesn't have an interpolation func.  Seems like it would be a huge advantage in many cases to simplify editing.


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: tjwasiak on June 06, 2014, 11:47:59 AM
Could you tell me where is this interpolation in TunerPro?


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: phila_dot on June 06, 2014, 02:23:25 PM
Could you tell me where is this interpolation in TunerPro?

I must have imagined it.

I swore on the function drop down there was one labeled "Interp" that would interpolate between highlighted cells, but I'm not seeing it now.

Unless it was temporarily available in an older version. ???


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: nyet on June 06, 2014, 02:31:37 PM
you can KINDA do the same in OLS with the edit function with the % in four corners... flatten the area you want to interpolate, then use the four corner thingy to make a smooth area.


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: em.Euro.R18 on September 04, 2014, 12:34:38 PM
Since noone has posted any visuals yet:

Here is an illustration of the results of properly setting up KFWDKMSN and MSNWDK on a big turbo A4. This car has a 50 trim, S4 throttle body and a very large SEM intake manifold. You can see how far off the calculated value was prior to tuning. If the MAF failed, it certainly would not have driven well.

Before:

(http://i.imgur.com/YO3cSrC.png)

After:

(http://i.imgur.com/5d8ONyB.png)

I could have spent more time here, but I was satisfied.


How did you log or plot theoretical mass airflow at throttle plate?


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: nyet on September 04, 2014, 12:57:49 PM

How did you log or plot theoretical mass airflow at throttle plate?

From ME7L m7_alias.map:

msdk_w              , {MassAirFlowAtThrottlePlate}       , {Massenstrom ▒ber Drosselklappe (word)}


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: ddillenger on September 04, 2014, 01:00:31 PM
What nye said!


Title: Re:
Post by: em.Euro.R18 on September 04, 2014, 01:59:51 PM
I had no idea theoretical could be logged! Now obviously the resolution is limited to map limit. I can't imagine getting them to line up via MSN/WDK. IOP/IRL and possibly some playing around in KFZWIOP/IOP2 ?

Thank you guys as usual!


Title: Re:
Post by: nyet on September 04, 2014, 02:31:56 PM
I had no idea theoretical could be logged! Now obviously the resolution is limited to map limit. I can't imagine getting them to line up via MSN/WDK. IOP/IRL and possibly some playing around in KFZWIOP/IOP2 ?

Thank you guys as usual!

You do not have to touch IOP/IRL or anything other than MSN/WDK..


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: nyet on September 07, 2014, 06:37:38 PM
From ME7L m7_alias.map:

msdk_w              , {MassAirFlowAtThrottlePlate}       , {Massenstrom ▒ber Drosselklappe (word)}


BTW for the sake of completeness

msndk_w and mshfm_w are not the correct values to compare.
Have a look at BGMSZS and try to understand why.


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: prj on March 15, 2015, 06:30:51 AM
MSN/WDK is a characteristic of the throttle alone only.
It is the base mass airflow through the throttle plate at a given throttle opening.
It does not matter what turbo you fit on there, it is always going to be nearly the same for a given opening at the same pressure and air temperature in the instances where the throttle is limiting the engine.
And msnwdk is corrected by pressure pre-throttle plate.

The map you need to edit is WDKUGDN, MSN/WDK only need axis extending in some cases.


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP tuning
Post by: nyet on November 01, 2015, 04:25:42 PM
Yes.
Basically it should be <0.95 if the axis is <1

KFVPDKSD/E thread split to separate topic, since it is about throttle plate control, not fast path torque reduction...

http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=9221.0title=


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: mattytdi on February 12, 2016, 01:52:52 PM
Hi there gents,
just wondering if any of you may have an xdf which will make following the settings discussed in this thread a little simpler..? I have recently installed a gt2860 on my b6 1.8t, running around 17psi, pulls great, and have made some map adjustments to improve the performance, but not handy enough yet with xdf editing to make sense of the maps im able to look at.
That or... I'd be happy to compare to a .bin that is mapped for 12-13psi waste gate.
Thanks gents.
Im reading and re-reading this topic to try to increase my understanding... but not sure how to find axis variables described here..


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: Jim_Coupe on March 30, 2016, 07:29:50 AM
This is how KFWDKMSN and KFWDKSMX looks like in an NA 3.2 VR6 24v BUB..

KFWDKSMX is 99.9985 over the entire map.

KFWDKMSN is ramping up in the beginning and slowly increases. What does this say on spool in a BIG turbo application?


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: ddillenger on March 30, 2016, 08:19:53 AM
MSN/WDK is a characteristic of the throttle alone only.
It is the base mass airflow through the throttle plate at a given throttle opening.
It does not matter what turbo you fit on there, it is always going to be nearly the same for a given opening at the same pressure and air temperature in the instances where the throttle is limiting the engine.
And msnwdk is corrected by pressure pre-throttle plate.

The map you need to edit is WDKUGDN, MSN/WDK only need axis extending in some cases.

This assumes everyone scales their MAF's appropriately. IMO, you should always check it to make sure that in the event of a failure calculations will be realistic.


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: prj on March 30, 2016, 09:03:33 AM
What does this say on spool in a BIG turbo application?
Nothing whatsoever. The throttle is just an orifice and the map describes how much it can flow until the flow speed hits the speed of sound and chokes at different positions.
This map does not work in a turbo application because you are missing the pre-throttle pressure multiplication.


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: nyet on March 30, 2016, 10:51:15 AM
This map does not work in a turbo application because you are missing the pre-throttle pressure multiplication.

I still don't understand why people insist that you can just throw FI onto any old NA hardware and expect to keep the same ECU.


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: prj on March 30, 2016, 02:08:35 PM
I still don't understand why people insist that you can just throw FI onto any old NA hardware and expect to keep the same ECU.
You can keep the same ECU, but you need to make modifications to code.


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: ddillenger on March 30, 2016, 09:07:57 PM
You can keep the same ECU, but you need to make modifications to code.

Jenner kept the same panties. Doesn't make it right!

I kid, I kid.


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: vwaudiguy on March 31, 2016, 07:56:31 PM
I kid, I kid.


Triumph!


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: giles92 on August 24, 2016, 07:01:38 PM
It says to run a realistic LDRXN. What are some methods of determining that from scratch on a new setup? Set it a little high, watch where the actual boost comes alive and graph it off of that?

On 2.7t the k03s spool quick down low at roughly 2000 rpms. With a larger turbo the powerband is shifted and youre not even in much boost till 3500 rpm or so. Is there room to add timing in the 1800-3000 range when your 2.7t is running like a 2.8 N/A? anything else to take advantage of before boost can build?


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: Carsinc on August 24, 2016, 07:46:10 PM
As far as timing yes Its very common for timing to be added on BT car before the turbo spools.
LDRXN I have always really questioned because really big turbos can has very different spool times in different gears.
I had a 2.0 20v that would not make 15psi in first but made it by 3800 in 4th. So in my opinion thats a very good question
that i will let others answer.


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: Ken-1 on April 29, 2017, 10:55:46 AM
Hello,

How do you do to get the throttlebody to open fully at rpms below spool treashold when running big turbos on small engines? Currently it's not really working like it should on my tune.

Attached a picture of the behaviour. In those loads the IOP and IRL is stock. I tweaked KFMSNWDK so that it is 60 % lower on these loads and rpms and also of course KFWDKMSN is 60 % larger in the same areas. Maybe helped a bit, but not much.

I think the reason is ME7 thinks I will have boost in those rpms but i do not have that. Maybe LDRPLS should be tuned, but I dont think I even have that map in ME7.5 1.8t software? I there something similar?

Also, I have tuned axis of maps KFVPDKSD and KFVPDKSE with: original value * (my base boost / original base boost. Could this make things worse?

Any ideas?

Would increasing WDKUGDN help?

/Kenneth





Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: giles92 on May 07, 2017, 06:31:56 AM
What does your kfwdksmx look like around those rpm points? If youre concerned it mighty have to do with boost why dont you overlay req boost and actual or post a log file.


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: nbdiy on May 07, 2017, 11:50:38 PM
How do you do to get the throttlebody to open fully at rpms below spool treashold when running big turbos on small engines? Currently it's not really working like it should on my tune.

Attached a picture of the behaviour. In those loads the IOP and IRL is stock. I tweaked KFMSNWDK so that it is 60 % lower on these loads and rpms and also of course KFWDKMSN is 60 % larger in the same areas. Maybe helped a bit, but not much.

I think the reason is ME7 thinks I will have boost in those rpms but i do not have that. Maybe LDRPLS should be tuned, but I dont think I even have that map in ME7.5 1.8t software? I there something similar?

Also, I have tuned axis of maps KFVPDKSD and KFVPDKSE with: original value * (my base boost / original base boost. Could this make things worse?

The map you are searching is KFURL.

It correction factor of volumetric efficiency

Example (Values are fictitious):

Your old Charger does 100g/s @ 0,6bar
Your new one has better VE and makes 110g/s @ 0,6bar

So you need to change KFURL about 10%.

desired boost in manifold is KFMIRL*additional factors/KFURL.


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: nyet on May 08, 2017, 12:31:08 AM
No. That isn't what KFURL does.


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: nbdiy on May 08, 2017, 02:23:58 AM
Lets talk about this, maybe I got this wrong, but I got some good gesults with this.

KFURL-> psrlro_w*ftbr_w -> fupsrl_W

rlsol_w/fupsrl_w -> pssol_w

KFURL is dependent on NWS. NWS would influence VE, too. But even on Cars without NWS KFURL is used...


So from my understanding this correction for pressure/filling and inverse..


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: prj on May 08, 2017, 05:58:45 AM
No. That isn't what KFURL does.
That is exactly what KFURL does.

@nbdiy, you are correct.
KFURL is the base VE map and then KFPBRK/NW and KFPRG are corrections from that - multiplicative and additive.


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: nbdiy on May 08, 2017, 06:29:52 AM
Thank you, I´ve done few cars this way and this gave me really good results.

ftbr_w is mostly about 1,1-1,3. So if I want to calculate KFMIRL very approximately to boost I go KFMIRL*1,2/KFURL
(Very very approximately of course, its possible to make a full formula with the fr, but this need few more factors)

(edited middle part because it could have been misleading)


Title: Re: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: Ken-1 on May 10, 2017, 11:53:09 PM
The map you are searching is KFURL.

It correction factor of volumetric efficiency

Example (Values are fictitious):

Your old Charger does 100g/s @ 0,6bar
Your new one has better VE and makes 110g/s @ 0,6bar

So you need to change KFURL about 10%.

desired boost in manifold is KFMIRL*additional factors/KFURL.


Hello,

That could be the case yes. Anyhow, I put axis of  KFVPDKSD and KFVPDKSEback to stock and now the throttle plate opens fully also off boost.

Maybe this is incorrect, but it seems to be quite smooth anyhow so I will live with it like this. No need to overengineer just now.

Br. Kenneth


Title: Big turbo IRL/IOP/LDRPLS/KFWDKMSN tuning
Post by: DavidPrefs on June 23, 2017, 02:14:33 AM
Did the intake change when doing the install? If so, from what to what?

What are you using for the calculated hp? Or do you have actual runs on the dyno?

Do you have any way of measuring pressure at the outlet of the turbo and compare that to the intake manifold pressure?

Did you find a log yet?

And that thing is a beast