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Title: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: Bettonracing on March 09, 2011, 01:51:28 AM Anybody here messing with it? Some of the general documentation refers to it being varied depending on load, as well as some cranking function, but I can't seem to find any tables, or specific information.
I'm also looking for measured spark dwell data (under any condition) if You're willing to share. Thanks, H. Kurt Betton Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: silentbob on March 09, 2011, 03:02:20 AM Have a look at the Funktionsrahmen Tony posted. Ignition realisation with dwell time s.o. is described in the section ZUESZ. You can find all the information you need there.
Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: Bettonracing on March 09, 2011, 03:37:14 AM Have a look at the Funktionsrahmen Tony posted. Ignition realisation with dwell time s.o. is described in the section ZUESZ. You can find all the information you need there. Thanks. I'll check it out. Regards, Kurt Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: ABCD on July 18, 2012, 04:16:43 AM Incresing dwell time will increase coil charge storage..
But, beware : if it is increased too much...the currents in ECU may go high and cause damage to ECU Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: prj on July 18, 2012, 05:44:37 AM You will also fry the coils or at least severely reduce their service life if you run higher dwell time than needed.
Really, the dwell data should be set as per coil manufacturer specification. Definitely not by "playing with it". Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: jibberjive on July 22, 2012, 12:57:39 AM Anyone know if the manufacturer spec dwell time is different between the B5 S4 coils and the 2.0t FSI coils?
Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: prj on July 22, 2012, 02:47:13 AM For 2.0 TFSI coils, run about 2.0 to 2.5ms depending on voltage.
Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: jibberjive on July 22, 2012, 03:07:12 AM For 2.0 TFSI coils, run about 2.0 to 2.5ms depending on voltage. Do you know offhand what the stock B5 S4 is?Edit: I guess I could take a look at ZUESZ myself ha. Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: s5fourdoor on January 24, 2013, 05:29:28 PM 120-day+ thread how goes?
attached is my current xdf which has many tables added for the b5s4 m-box. specifically, i added multiple tables from my 2012-08-25 release, including KFSZT and FSZTM (relating to ignition dwell) while researching dwell for 2.0t coils, i found that 2.0t coils run a clean even dwell across all rpm's. the only variable which changes, according to what i read written by PRJ in a AEB 2.0t thread, 2.0t coil dwell is constant, changing univariately with respect to battery voltage. here is a screenshot of the dwell you should be running for a 2.0t coil. also a screenshot for the FSZTM, dwell multiplier related to engine temp (tmot). please, if someone has a comment that what i'm showing here is wrong, let me know. my understanding after having read the FR and other threads is that: 2.0t coil dwell should not relate to rpm. it should also not relate differently based on engine temperature. can anyone explain the scientific reason why this is for the 1.8t and 2.0t coils? in fact, from what i gathered, certain implemented multi-spark setups (oem setups) have an actual uni-variate table for the ms of dwell vs batt. volt. has inductive spark technology improved that much from old-b5 coils to b7/b8 coils? anyone? please compare the stock m-box dwell to see what i am saying. i want feedback, please provide. Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: prj on January 24, 2013, 05:37:56 PM The older coils in the older ECU's also ran dwell which was based on RPM and Voltage alone.
Fact is, the resistance that has to be overcome is dependent on cylinder charge too, so from a model standpoint, it makes sense to use lower dwell values for when the cylinder charge is lower and higher values when the cylinder charge is higher. You should probably look at some MED9 images and see what dwell is set to in those for these coils. I've been just fairly uniformly setting them to 2.0ms at 13V and have not had issues even at pretty silly boost levels. Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: s5fourdoor on January 24, 2013, 05:42:24 PM ok, so: the 2.4ms @ 13v across the board here too much? the car seems to run fine so far.
if not, can you show a table which has a few more recommended values for kfszt? thanks prj, as always. also, it's ok that i de-activated the warmup dwell increase by setting to 1.00 below 51 grad C? Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: julex on January 25, 2013, 07:42:36 AM I am in for more info myself as I have 2.0 conversion on my car as well and no problems running stock values.
Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: prj on January 25, 2013, 09:21:22 AM You will have "no problem" running stock values except:
1. The car will probably not start as well in -25C and below. 2. The coils lifetime will be severely reduced. The right dwell is "the minimum that is enough". I'd say 2.4 ms at 13v is too much, they are fine at 2.0ms. Less dwell means longer life for the coil. Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: julex on January 25, 2013, 09:41:14 AM But the stock m-box dwell time is well below 2.0ms for most data points (2.0ms until 2000rpms, less beyond that) at 13v with multiplier of 1.5 applied below 50C (which might need a correction based on what you said).
So based on what you said, the dwell time is right for the most part? Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: prj on January 25, 2013, 09:49:25 AM But the stock m-box dwell time is well below 2.0ms for most data points (2.0ms until 2000rpms, less beyond that) at 13v with multiplier of 1.5 applied below 50C (which might need a correction based on what you said). I would not be so sure.So based on what you said, the dwell time is right for the most part? Log the actual dwell during a WOT pull. On the 1.8T's it was around 4ms for the Hitachi coils. But I am not really sure about the 2.7TT stock ones. I just bought 6 brand new coils for my RS, because they are not that expensive and my POSes are fine. The variable you want to log is tsrldyn. Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: julex on January 25, 2013, 09:56:59 AM I would not be so sure. Log the actual dwell during a WOT pull. On the 1.8T's it was around 4ms for the Hitachi coils. But I am not really sure about the 2.7TT stock ones. I just bought 6 brand new coils for my RS, because they are not that expensive and my POSes are fine. The variable you want to log is tsrldyn. Thanks. Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: s5fourdoor on January 25, 2013, 12:22:56 PM Is tsrldyn the variable which the FR calls szout_w? Section ZUESZ in FR, description says "dwell time".
Any idea? Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: julex on January 25, 2013, 03:07:00 PM I logged tslrdyn and it indeed leans on 3.5ms limit a lot especially when "stepping on it". I suspect it is the same with the 2.0 table above, the coils probably charge longer than the table says. I would like to see what TSMX on TFSI ecu is like, it would us more idea as to what charge time they run up to.
Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: s5fourdoor on January 25, 2013, 03:17:35 PM I logged tslrdyn and it indeed leans on 3.5ms limit a lot especially when "stepping on it". I suspect it is the same with the 2.0 table above, the coils probably charge longer than the table says. I would like to see what TSMX on TFSI ecu is like, it would us more idea as to what charge time they run up to. So is this evidence for or against the stock table values and elimination of cold-start multiplier? Thoughts? I'm reading it as evidence against the stock table values. Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: catbed on January 25, 2013, 03:32:24 PM moved my post.
Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: julex on January 25, 2013, 09:10:48 PM So is this evidence for or against the stock table values and elimination of cold-start multiplier? Thoughts? I'm reading it as evidence against the stock table values. What I am saying is that there is much more to it than just that table. I wouldnt be surprised if tfsi ecu wasn't driving its coils at very similar dwell time as 2.7 seeing that the table is just a starting point for dwell calculations. Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: prj on January 26, 2013, 07:18:19 AM What I am saying is that there is much more to it than just that table. I wouldnt be surprised if tfsi ecu wasn't driving its coils at very similar dwell time as 2.7 seeing that the table is just a starting point for dwell calculations. It seems you are making a habit of questioning everything I say. So far I've made only one mistake, and that's telling you to log tsrldyn instead of szout_w, but it's not too important, since you can derive szout_w from tsrldyn using the KFSZDUB table, and at 14V it's 1.0 anyway. In a 2.0TFSi binary the following is set: TSMX is set to 3.5 CW_SZTRL is set to 0, meaning only load corrected dwell is used so SZOUT is tsrldyn corrected by KFSZDUB. This also means that tsrldyn is equal to KFTSRL * FSZTM. KFTSRL values are: (http://gm.mainframe.no/pics/kftsrl.png) KFSZDUB values in 2.0 TFSI MED9 use 12.0 as it's center point: (http://gm.mainframe.no/pics/kfszdub.png) FSZTM with a hot engine is 0.996. This means the dwell is between 1.9 and 2.4ms at 14 volts in normal operating conditions. I have personally tested these coils to give a good spark at 2.0ms uniformly throughout the range on engines running more than 300 hp per liter - the factory dwell time is conservatively high. 2.0 TFSi running similar dwell time? I don't think so. Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: julex on January 26, 2013, 08:34:12 AM It seems you are making a habit of questioning everything I say. [Awesome stuff] Prj, I apologize if I come across is way. In no way do I want to question what you say, so far you've been of great help on any subject I asked questions about, I bow to your expertise. What would be the best course of action for 2.0tfsi converted M-box then? Just cap TSMX to 2.0 - 2.5 and call it a day? Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: prj on January 26, 2013, 09:35:01 AM You could do that as a quick hack, and truth be told, I've done that in a pinch in the past.
But it would not be correct, because it is not quite following the model and KFTSDYN gets applied after TSMX as a multiplicative addition. Looking at the ME7 diagrams now, szout_w is not the value to log, it's szrl_w in case of ME7. Was looking at MED9 earlier. That's two mistakes. The ME7 ZUESZ diagrams are a huge clusterfuck, it is much better in MED9. As I understand FSZTM*KFSZT is one source, but this is not used in 2.7TT (CW_FUBND=0). What is used is KFTSRL as base, then corrected through a bunch of things. You can see that already the base opening time is too high 3.0ms almost to redline. After KFTSRL it gets corrected during dynamic load, and this is where the extra dwell comes from. The factor is FTSDRLW. Then it gets corrected for engine temp (FSWTM), but this is 1 after 50C. It then goes through a battery voltage correction (KFSZDUB), this is 1 at 14V. Finally it is corrected for RPM gradient - KFTSDYN... this can have a small influence, but mostly this will be at 1. I think if you want to transfer it over right, DTSDRLW should be forced to 1 and KFTSRL, FSWTM, KFSZDUB should be filled from KFTSRL, FSZTM, KFSZDUB from MED9. Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: s5fourdoor on January 26, 2013, 10:28:29 AM OK. I'm glad somebody finally admitted we don't have the model for it.
I've been tearing through these documents and there isn't shit that's comprehensive for ME7.1 Thanks for the relative insights PRJ. Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: s5fourdoor on January 26, 2013, 10:31:13 AM Where is DTSDRLW? I found DTSDRL in your auto-M xdf.
Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: prj on January 26, 2013, 10:34:20 AM OK. I'm glad somebody finally admitted we don't have the model for it. I've been tearing through these documents and there isn't shit that's comprehensive for ME7.1 Thanks for the relative insights PRJ. You've probably been looking at the Alfa FR. It's very primitive there. A very good explanation is in the 1.8T German FR along with the diagrams. There is a lot of text explaining how it all works. Of course if you can not speak German, it might be a bit hard to read... Where is DTSDRLW? I found DTSDRL in your auto-M xdf. You could FF DTSDRL (if you are sure you have the right offset), that should essentially accomplish the same thing as setting DTSDRLW to 1. DTSDRL is activation threshold. Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: s5fourdoor on January 26, 2013, 10:41:59 AM OK. The DTSDRL i'm seeing on the m-box is 2.60. I will definitely check out the 1.8t german FR, and luckily I'm ok at speaking/reading Deutsch.
I'm still not super clear on all of the changes, so I'm going to continue reading the FR and assembling a master list of tables. I'd prefer not to make a sequence of uneducated changes. Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: jibberjive on January 26, 2013, 11:16:24 AM ...
Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: prj on January 26, 2013, 11:37:15 AM OK. The DTSDRL i'm seeing on the m-box is 2.60. I will definitely check out the 1.8t german FR, and luckily I'm ok at speaking/reading Deutsch. I'm still not super clear on all of the changes, so I'm going to continue reading the FR and assembling a master list of tables. I'd prefer not to make a sequence of uneducated changes. Well I already gave you a list of tables, and what you need to change. Feel free to look at it yourself though and broaden your understanding of the subject. Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: s5fourdoor on January 26, 2013, 11:47:28 AM Thanks for all of the help. Just to clarify. DTSDRL set to 10+ / FF (maximal value in hex) would mean that the ignition mode will *never* switch? Thus, the dwell tables that would be used would be the kftsrl, kfszdub which you are showing from the 2.0tfsi tables?
Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: prj on January 26, 2013, 11:55:40 AM Well, it should be, yes, but I have not logged drlsolf_w, so don't know how high it goes.
But the right way would be to change DTSDRLW to 1. Then the zuesz-lastdyn module will be ignored and you can get away with transferring over the 3 maps I noted earlier. Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: s5fourdoor on January 26, 2013, 12:01:21 PM Beautiful solution. I'm going to continue going through this all and try to figure out if/where DTSDRLW is located. It was not in your auto-551M, so I'm guessing perhaps its not in this ECU defn.
Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: prj on January 26, 2013, 12:11:11 PM Beautiful solution. I'm going to continue going through this all and try to figure out if/where DTSDRLW is located. It was not in your auto-551M, so I'm guessing perhaps its not in this ECU defn. (http://expattutor.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/spoon-feeding-pupils.jpg) I think a typo has come in somewhere, it's FTSDRLW, not DTSDRLW (that does not even exist). And it's 0x16D24 in M-box. Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: s5fourdoor on January 26, 2013, 02:40:26 PM lmfao. low blow, i was reading the wrong FR.
Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: s5fourdoor on January 27, 2013, 06:09:19 PM Here's my final XDF to do this update.
Also attached is an excel spreadsheet showing the changes you should make on your bin. I highly recommend doing these changes if you have the 2.0t coils on your 2.7tt. Please let me know if you have any questions. Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: jibberjive on January 27, 2013, 09:19:54 PM I highly recommend doing these changes if you have the 2.0t coils on your 2.7tt. Any feedback on the performance/character differences from doing/not doing these changes?Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: s5fourdoor on January 28, 2013, 12:55:19 AM Faster throttle response, lowered off throttle bucking...
Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: rnagy86 on January 28, 2013, 04:12:24 AM So these coils are the 07K 905 715F ones?
Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: s-company on January 28, 2013, 05:31:54 AM Great Job, i will test it asap!
just one question, did you just copy the values (kftsrl,fswtm,kfszdub and ftsdrlw)from 2.0TFSI binary or are they already interpolated? Here's my final XDF to do this update. Also attached is an excel spreadsheet showing the changes you should make on your bin. I highly recommend doing these changes if you have the 2.0t coils on your 2.7tt. Please let me know if you have any questions. Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: sn00k on January 28, 2013, 06:34:21 AM ive been running FSI/TFSI coils for some weeks now, and there is indeed a huge improvement in the lower/mid rpm, esp using stock injectors.. not so noticable using my other setup of injectors with improved atomization.
..ive been wondering about how to set the dwelltime for these coils as the 1.8t coil-timings wouldnt be optimal.. found this thread and i have now made the mods mentioned, going for a testdrive in a few mins, ill report back :) btw, i use the 07K 905 715F mentioned earlier. Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: s-company on January 28, 2013, 07:20:17 AM just another input from me, in me9 there is no KFSZT, why not just use KFSZT from newer 1,8T, they also have these new coils..
all dwell maps are quite similar to med9... Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: prj on January 28, 2013, 09:52:19 AM just another input from me, in me9 there is no KFSZT, why not just use KFSZT from newer 1,8T, they also have these new coils.. all dwell maps are quite similar to med9... KFSZT is not used at all. Does not matter what is in that map. Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: s5fourdoor on January 28, 2013, 10:34:42 AM Great Job, i will test it asap! just one question, did you just copy the values (kftsrl,fswtm,kfszdub and ftsdrlw)from 2.0TFSI binary or are they already interpolated? They were axis-interpoloated, meaning that i only took an axis if it was very close to the value of the other axis, and then did averaging between non-available axis values. Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: s5fourdoor on January 28, 2013, 10:35:14 AM So these coils are the 07K 905 715F ones? Yup, the grey ones. Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: s5fourdoor on January 28, 2013, 10:37:12 AM just another input from me, in me9 there is no KFSZT, why not just use KFSZT from newer 1,8T, they also have these new coils.. all dwell maps are quite similar to med9... prj's method turns off KFSZT. only the maps in my spreadsheet are the ones being used. the required values are lifted right from the screenshots of prj's 2.0t bin-file on page 2 of this thread. Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: marcellus on January 28, 2013, 02:34:19 PM Thank you PRJ and Nahalem.
Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: prj on January 28, 2013, 06:47:12 PM prj's method turns off KFSZT. only the maps in my spreadsheet are the ones being used. the required values are lifted right from the screenshots of prj's 2.0t bin-file on page 2 of this thread. No, I don't turn off KFSZT, this map is never used in the first place! Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: s5fourdoor on January 29, 2013, 12:13:00 AM what that guy said. lol.
let's keep the spoon feeding going. are these settings effected by nls/als? Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: catbed on February 04, 2013, 02:08:56 AM Here are the locations for 018CH file:
KFTSRL - 1A728 FSWTM - 1A5EF KFSZDUB - 1A651 FTSDRLW - 16FC8 I will change those maps and test it out with some fresh coils. Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: masterj on February 13, 2013, 02:30:38 AM Maybe someone could screenshot maps from fsi golf mkv?
red coils code: 06E 905 115 Or attach defined ols/xdf file :) TIA Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: masterj on February 15, 2013, 04:56:43 PM I compared both FR to understand better how to transfer this. Basically what I found is that we should care only about these variables:
SZOUT_W closing time issue SZRL_W corrected closing time for the output angle SZTCALC_W Closing in Timer 1 increments SZOUT_W: [ME7] FSZTM * KFSZT [MED] KFSZDUB * min[FSZTM * KFTSRL * (1|1.5|2) (over time TZSUDYN) || TSMX] (this is from audi TFSI 06F906056S) Since we have no control over time in ME7, we can skip (1|1.5|2) (over time TZSUDYN) part. SZOUT_W: [ME7] FSZTM * KFSZT [MED] KFSZDUB * min[FSZTM * KFTSRL || TSMX] TSMX = 3.5, so if take this into account then we can simplify everything to: SZOUT_W: [ME7] FSZTM * KFSZT [MED] KFSZDUB * (FSZTM * KFTSRL)[upper limit 3.5] So if my logic is correct, we would need to multiply FSZTM * KFTSRL and check if there any values > 3.5, if there are then replace them with 3.5 (chnage either FSZTM or KFTSRL). When that is checkd it is time to multiply FSZTM and KFTSRL by KFSZDUB. Both tables we end up with goes to me7 file. Please tell me if im thinkings this right... Also, can someone attached tfsi/fsi file with these maps defined? Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: catbed on February 15, 2013, 06:47:23 PM I compared both FR to understand better how to transfer this. Basically what I found is that we should care only about these variables: SZOUT_W closing time issue SZRL_W corrected closing time for the output angle SZTCALC_W Closing in Timer 1 increments SZOUT_W: [ME7] FSZTM * KFSZT [MED] KFSZDUB * min[FSZTM * KFTSRL * (1|1.5|2) (over time TZSUDYN) || TSMX] (this is from audi TFSI 06F906056S) Since we have no control over time in ME7, we can skip (1|1.5|2) (over time TZSUDYN) part. SZOUT_W: [ME7] FSZTM * KFSZT [MED] KFSZDUB * min[FSZTM * KFTSRL || TSMX] TSMX = 3.5, so if take this into account then we can simplify everything to: SZOUT_W: [ME7] FSZTM * KFSZT [MED] KFSZDUB * (FSZTM * KFTSRL)[upper limit 3.5] So if my logic is correct, we would need to multiply FSZTM * KFTSRL and check if there any values > 3.5, if there are then replace them with 3.5 (chnage either FSZTM or KFTSRL). When that is checkd it is time to multiply FSZTM and KFTSRL by KFSZDUB. Both tables we end up with goes to me7 file. Please tell me if im thinkings this right... Also, can someone attached tfsi/fsi file with these maps defined? I don't believe KFSZT is used at all in ME7 because of CW_FUBND = 0. After looking over the FR module, and translating it I agree with prj's explanation a few pages earlier. KFTSRL is first used as a base, then FWSTM gets applied. Under dynamic load, dwell time is multiplied by the factor ftsdrl, which is taken from FTSDRLW. Next up is KFSZDUB, then KFTSDYN. Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: masterj on February 16, 2013, 01:38:00 AM I don't believe KFSZT is used at all in ME7 because of CW_FUBND = 0. After looking over the FR module, and translating it I agree with prj's explanation a few pages earlier. KFTSRL is first used as a base, then FWSTM gets applied. Under dynamic load, dwell time is multiplied by the factor ftsdrl, which is taken from FTSDRLW. Next up is KFSZDUB, then KFTSDYN. how CW_FUBND can affect szout_w? I see it only in BAND subfunction P.S> MED9 FR doesn't have szrlw, so we supposed to exchange it with ME7 szout_w? Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: masterj on February 16, 2013, 05:40:12 AM Also my theory on KFSZT seems to be work.
Basically what I propose is: FSZTM = 1s (<= 3.5ms limit) KFSZT = KFTSRL * KFSZDUB Attaching my excel that converted values to KFSZT (seems to be OK numbers). Now back to szrl_w... Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: prj on February 16, 2013, 05:41:29 AM Also my theory on KFSZT seems to be work. Basically what I propose is: FSZTM = 1s KFSZT = KFTSRL * KFSZDUB Attaching my excel that converted values to KFSZT (seems to be OK numbers). Now back to szrl_w... Yawn. KFSZT is not used. Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: masterj on February 16, 2013, 05:42:59 AM Yawn. KFSZT is not used. Can you show me in FR where it in diagram shows that KFSZT isn't used? unless szout_w isn't used at all by some magic that isn't showed in diagram.. Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: prj on February 16, 2013, 05:50:51 AM Can you show me in FR where it in diagram shows that KFSZT isn't used? unless szout_w isn't used at all by some magic that isn't showed in diagram.. You need to be able to read the description in german to understand it from the ME7 FR, the diagram alone is not enough. Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: masterj on February 16, 2013, 05:55:28 AM You need to be able to read the description in german to understand it from the ME7 FR, the diagram alone is not enough. so whole szout isn't used or KFSZT = szout? Do we have ASM proof? Because text does not always reflect real things... Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: catbed on February 16, 2013, 07:45:00 AM Can you show me in FR where it in diagram shows that KFSZT isn't used? unless szout_w isn't used at all by some magic that isn't showed in diagram.. See the attached file for translated ZUESZ. Here is the snippet describing calculation of dwell time. Calculation of angle output The basic closing time for a selected voltage (eg 12 volts) is available in KFTSRL = f (nmot, rl). The characteristic of the voltage increases FSWTM offer in the cold start and warm-up. With dynamic load (B_swdy = 1), the closing time is multiplied by the factor ftsdrl until the time of TZSUDYN has expired. As long B_swdy is active, which has been triggered by B_swdy maximum occurred tsdrlmx the source for the factor of FTSDRLW. B_swdy is reset as long as drlsolf_w> DTSDRL is (re-triggering). Calculated by then closing time is limited by TSMx upwards. The correction of the influence of Ubatt is by the factor in the characteristic field KFSZDUB. A voltage offset between the measured and the voltage at Ubatt ignition module can be taken into account with DUBZS. A positive speed gradient is corrected in the map KFTSDYN. The minimum open time limit applies separately to each ignition output. I have only changed KFTSRL, FSWTM, KFSZDUB, and FTSDRLW and my tsrldyn values were indeed lower. I have not touched KFSZT. Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: masterj on February 16, 2013, 12:24:21 PM See the attached file for translated ZUESZ. Here is the snippet describing calculation of dwell time. Calculation of angle output The basic closing time for a selected voltage (eg 12 volts) is available in KFTSRL = f (nmot, rl). The characteristic of the voltage increases FSWTM offer in the cold start and warm-up. With dynamic load (B_swdy = 1), the closing time is multiplied by the factor ftsdrl until the time of TZSUDYN has expired. As long B_swdy is active, which has been triggered by B_swdy maximum occurred tsdrlmx the source for the factor of FTSDRLW. B_swdy is reset as long as drlsolf_w> DTSDRL is (re-triggering). Calculated by then closing time is limited by TSMx upwards. The correction of the influence of Ubatt is by the factor in the characteristic field KFSZDUB. A voltage offset between the measured and the voltage at Ubatt ignition module can be taken into account with DUBZS. A positive speed gradient is corrected in the map KFTSDYN. The minimum open time limit applies separately to each ignition output. I have only changed KFTSRL, FSWTM, KFSZDUB, and FTSDRLW and my tsrldyn values were indeed lower. I have not touched KFSZT. Thanks catbed, that explains to me something: in MED9 the output variable from ZUESZ is called szout_w, but in ME7 same variable is called szrl_w, even though ME7 has another variable szout_w that is basically FSZTM x KFSZT. Now for the MED9 to ME7 transfer I did this: --------------------------------- TZSUDYN = 0s KFTSRL = KFTSRL FSWTM = FSZTM TSMXNL = TSMXNL NMNZUESA = NMNZUESA NMXZUESA = NMXZUESA TSMX = TSMX KFSZDUB = KFSZDUB DUBZS = 0 KFTSDYN = 1s --------------------------------- szrl_w (ME7) == szout_w (MED9) Also I found out that in MED9 SA(T) subfunction of ZUESZ is disabled by set very high rpm lower limit. Only things that left different were ftsdrl and KFTSDYN. KFTSDYN I have set to 1s to disable it. To disable ftsdrl correction I have set TZSUDYN = 0s. One more thing to consider: DUBZS. I believe this offset should be set to 0 if it isn't already. P.S> Some of the maps listed have already same values in ME7 and MED9, but to be non ecu dependable this list had to be such. Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: catbed on February 16, 2013, 02:43:53 PM Thanks catbed, that explains to me something: in MED9 the output variable from ZUESZ is called szout_w, but in ME7 same variable is called szrl_w, even though ME7 has another variable szout_w that is basically FSZTM x KFSZT. Now for the MED9 to ME7 transfer I did this: --------------------------------- TZSUDYN = 0s KFTSRL = KFTSRL FSWTM = FSZTM TSMXNL = TSMXNL NMNZUESA = NMNZUESA NMXZUESA = NMXZUESA TSMX = TSMX KFSZDUB = KFSZDUB DUBZS = 0 KFTSDYN = 1s --------------------------------- szrl_w (ME7) == szout_w (MED9) Also I found out that in MED9 SA(T) subfunction of ZUESZ is disabled by set very high rpm lower limit. Only things that left different were ftsdrl and KFTSDYN. KFTSDYN I have set to 1s to disable it. To disable ftsdrl correction I have set TZSUDYN = 0s. One more thing to consider: DUBZS. I believe this offset should be set to 0 if it isn't already. P.S> Some of the maps listed have already same values in ME7 and MED9, but to be non ecu dependable this list had to be such. Glad I could help. :D Good idea about DUBSZ, I missed that. Another way to deal with ftsdrl correction is to change FTSDRLW to 1, since that is ftsdrl's source. Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: jibberjive on May 11, 2013, 12:16:13 AM Any longer term feedback, or feedback from newer people who have made these adjustments with their 2.0 coilpacks? New people, did it make a tangible difference with these settings? Older people, still no blown 2.0 coils?
Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: sn00k on May 11, 2013, 02:51:44 AM Any longer term feedback, or feedback from newer people who have made these adjustments with their 2.0 coilpacks? New people, did it make a tangible difference with these settings? Older people, still no blown 2.0 coils? Been using the 2.0T coils this whole winter season, on E85, ~6-7 months, no issues at all, changed to the 2.0T values in january, and it runs quite a bit smoother then it did when just plugging the new coils in. noticed gain in low/mid rpm, as in; you dont have to press the throttle as far to keep the speed up. what supposedly was compressor surge is now gone, so id say the coils themself are a big improvement, esp with plugs that are gapped wider.. running ~1.1mm now, very good spark compared to the original setup. Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: catbed on May 11, 2013, 09:58:20 AM Any longer term feedback, or feedback from newer people who have made these adjustments with their 2.0 coilpacks? New people, did it make a tangible difference with these settings? Older people, still no blown 2.0 coils? Haven't blown a coil since I made these changes, but I also re-worked the harness so I can't say dwell time fixed it. Changed the dwell time on my buddy's stage 3, it seems to run smoother when boost comes on. Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: Axis on July 12, 2013, 05:57:19 PM As I understand FSZTM*KFSZT is one source, but this is not used in 2.7TT (CW_FUBND=0). I disagree, FFLDZ and KFFFANZ are the ones skipped in 551M due to CW_FUBND=0DISCLAIMER: there could be some errors in this code but not concerning CW_FUBND From what I can tell FSZTM & KFSZT are active. FSZTM & KFSZT: Code: loc_88B28C: ; CODE XREF: sub_88B264+2 Code: loc_88B456: ; CODE XREF: sub_88B264+1E8 Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: prj on July 13, 2013, 06:44:59 AM Looked into it a little, I think it should be that one logic is used only for starting the engine and the other one is used the rest of the time.
During driving the load based one is always used. Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: 20VTMK1 on September 27, 2013, 02:05:52 PM Been using the 2.0T coils this whole winter season, on E85, ~6-7 months, no issues at all, changed to the 2.0T values in january, and it runs quite a bit smoother then it did when just plugging the new coils in. noticed gain in low/mid rpm, as in; you dont have to press the throttle as far to keep the speed up. what supposedly was compressor surge is now gone, so id say the coils themself are a big improvement, esp with plugs that are gapped wider.. running ~1.1mm now, very good spark compared to the original setup. Hi SnOOk , Have you done this on the 1.8T engine ? Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: 20VTMK1 on September 27, 2013, 02:08:42 PM Maybe someone could screenshot maps from fsi golf mkv? red coils code: 06E 905 115 Or attach defined ols/xdf file :) TIA Hi MasterJ , Did you manage to get hold of the values associated to these coils ? I have these coils as well and was wondering if you could help out . I tried the search function with no luck. Am I correct to assume that these Red Tops will have different values for KFTSRL , FSWTM , KFSZDUB and FTSDRLW when compared to the earlier grey coils ? Thank you Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: sn00k on September 28, 2013, 11:21:54 AM Hi SnOOk , Have you done this on the 1.8T engine ? yes :) Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: 20VTMK1 on September 29, 2013, 06:07:20 AM Hi SnOOk ,
How did this work out for you ? Was it worth changing the maps ? I have the red top coils . Thanks Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: ABCD on October 01, 2013, 07:55:57 PM Has someone come across follow up sparks (post spark /multiple spark) in a cycle?
Title: Re: Post by: catbed on October 01, 2013, 11:11:58 PM Has someone come across follow up sparks (post spark /multiple spark) in a cycle? There was a thread that discussed multispark when dealing with e85 I believe Title: Re: Post by: julex on October 02, 2013, 11:18:43 AM There was a thread that discussed multispark when dealing with e85 I believe Here, I implemented it on my ECU: http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=2213.msg44621#msg44621 Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: ABCD on October 02, 2013, 08:06:10 PM Thanks catbed and julex, this was informative!
Title: Re: ME7.1: Ignition Dwell Post by: AudiMan85 on July 11, 2014, 04:12:54 PM Here's my final XDF to do this update. Also attached is an excel spreadsheet showing the changes you should make on your bin. I highly recommend doing these changes if you have the 2.0t coils on your 2.7tt. Please let me know if you have any questions. Your coil conversion values in the excel spreadsheet in this post are good to copy over to a MY2000 A6 2.7T flashed to NVR Stage 2++ w/S4 8DXXXXXL-box with the use of BREMI 077 (H or T) coils?? |