NefMoto

Technical => Tuning => Topic started by: BenR on November 13, 2013, 06:26:41 AM



Title: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: BenR on November 13, 2013, 06:26:41 AM
Hi Guys,

Ive seen a bit of chat around regarding this but no solid information supporting it so thought id start something.

HPFP
When a bigger pump is used we bump up the rail pressures under HDRPSOL. There are rail pressure maps for Homogenous Operation, Knock Protection, Lean Protection, Cat heating.There is also a maximum rail pressure limit map. X axis is RPM and Y axis is 'indexed Driver torque limit before change" which i dont fully understand but it seems to work like most other load vs rpm scaled maps.

There is also VHDP which is pump volume. For example the OEM on a 2.0tfsi is 251mm^3. Many tuners change this map when the HPFP is upgraded. Ive heard of 300mm^3 for an APR pump. Whats the formula behind this?

LPFP
Generally you dont need to touch this but once you're using bigger turbos you have 2 choices. Either change the hardware to something that is hardwired to flow more or change the software. It seems the hardware option is easier.
Maps i have found are:

KFNTBKS "Target pressure as a function of temperature HDP"
KLPSKRMX "Characteristic set pressure fuel low pressure system maximum"

I am about to do some testing on these maps and will report back my findings.

So if anyone is using the OEM LPFP module on a bigger turbo (2867, 3071, 3076) you will see your lpfp drop to 2.5bar once you start making half decent power. The question is how can we demand more fuel? Im confused in how the above to maps will help that as they're not requesting a certain pressure. I will however report back when i have more info, or if someone else does. Feel free to chime in.

Cheers



Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: RaraK on November 18, 2013, 01:55:57 PM
Your stock controller of mk5 gti and similar will usually overheat if you demand much out of a pump.

You must hardwire or upgrade to a better lpfp controller of the TTRS maybe.


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: mec on November 18, 2013, 02:45:01 PM
I'm running an rs4 lpfp controller on my a4, with stock pump and so far it has been way more than enough. When I installed it I did nothing to the lpfp maps, and I was seeing 6.1bar at idle, high 5's even at WOT. Then I adjusted the target pressure maps, now I Idle at 4.1bar and at WOT at 6000 RPM I am around 3.3-3.4bar. Not sure if you can use it. Otherwise the Boost Manager plus is also a cool solution, my friend had it on his car and you can program the lpfp maps, manage boost profiles, and control meth all from one device.


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: BenR on November 18, 2013, 06:03:41 PM
I currently use a TTRS HPFP on smaller turbo cars. Say GTX2867. It seems to hold well at 25psi to 7000rpm. Even after requesting higher pressures through the correct maps the TTRS pump is ok for 30psi on GTX3071.
I use the RS4 controller and TTRS pump but i believe you do not need to controller and it can be done through the correct maps. Has anyone done this?


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: RaraK on November 18, 2013, 09:09:40 PM
BenR -

Controller is needed for upgrade, it will overheat on road race or high speed runs for sure at high duty.  I have done this on multiple setups and had to use an uprated rs4/ttrs lpfp controller to resolve the issues.



Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: BenR on November 18, 2013, 09:18:46 PM
Rarak,

Thank you for the response. This is why i havent overheated yet. I will make sure the other cars use the module also.

I am yet to re flash my car but i was getting fault codes from this module. "Out of specified limit" I think after adjusting some maps i can get rid of this. Or maybe turn off the diagnostics/fault codes for the LPFP?


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: hammersword on November 25, 2013, 06:11:39 PM
I use stock controler with TTRS/RS3 pumps.

The only need is to recalibrate the controler's DC.
I did a GTX3071R last days and at 8200RPM I had 3.6bar @ 2bar boost with 84%DC
If you don't recalibrate well the controler then you will face an engine shut off at high speeds...

About the HPFP there are more maps like piston diameter, piston surface etc


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: TCSTigersClaw on November 27, 2013, 04:17:13 AM
MED is so complicated ,but its worth it !

Thanks Fotis


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: BenR on November 28, 2013, 03:39:36 PM
I dont like using the modules from different cars, too many other problems like waking it up when you open the door etc.

Ive found all the DC tables so should be able to get the OEM module to behave at high power with just the TTRS pump.


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Beaviz on December 01, 2013, 01:43:43 PM
About the HPFP there are more maps like piston diameter, piston surface etc

Hi Fotis

I am trying to figure this out as well. Are you talking about RQUAHDPK and VHDP? I am reading through the same pages in the FR over and over again without any luck. ???


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: hammersword on December 01, 2013, 05:41:48 PM
you got it. Some of the maps are these... try to fingure more maps


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Beaviz on December 02, 2013, 01:12:33 PM
you got it. Some of the maps are these... try to fingure more maps

I think I have figured out a bit more tonight.

I guess that these are the maps:
Map:
RQUAHDPK
SKHDPMX
VHDP
Description:
HPFP piston radius/area
Maximum compression limit of the HPFP piston
Total volume of the HPFP
Stock value:
16.0 mm2
5.0 mm
251.2 mm3

The calculation for VHDP seems to be: RQUAHDPK * pi * SKHDPMX (I wonder why VHDP it is actually defined as a map)

If the information I have found on the internet for aftermarket pumps are correct (assuming all have the same piston surface!), RQUAHDPK is changed to 24.0 mm2. If I input that into the formula above VHDP now = 376.8 mm3.

Is all this correct? I am only talking about calibration here - not changing the rail pressure.


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Beaviz on December 04, 2013, 10:57:31 AM
Still trying to figure this out. ??? ;D

Is VGESAPP the last map that I need?


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: B234R on December 04, 2013, 11:43:52 AM
VGESAPP is only used on application mode, not in the normal calculations.

For the rest you are on the right way...


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Beaviz on December 05, 2013, 01:51:18 PM
Thanks! I see about the application mode after reading closer.

How many maps am I missing? Just a hint would be nice... :)


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: B234R on December 05, 2013, 03:54:08 PM
Practical approach:
Well, log a stock HPFP on a stock file/car and compare to your modded file with bigger pump ;-)

Hints?
Personally I just changed the radius and volume. Works well enough for me.
Pressure regulation as well as adaption close enough to a stock car.

Without very dedicated logging you can't do much better imho.


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Beaviz on December 07, 2013, 02:06:26 PM
Thanks a lot! Really helpfull!

I am ready for logging as soon as the file is ready, will see if everything looks fine by then.

I however still have to define the maps (RQUAHDPK and VHDP) and this is not an easy job when we are talking about 1x1 maps. ??? Have been looking for two nights now without result. ???


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: B234R on December 07, 2013, 02:54:35 PM
Send me the MED9 file you are working on, I'll take a look and define them.


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: BenR on December 18, 2013, 04:15:59 PM
Great work Beaviz and good info. This will be very helpful to people.  :)


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: _mumin_ on January 01, 2014, 12:10:49 PM
I have some doubts about VHDP ... does I need to change that ?
When Yes , why it's not changed in CDLA or CDLB engines ?


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Beaviz on January 02, 2014, 01:40:16 AM
I have some doubts about VHDP ... does I need to change that ?
When Yes , why it's not changed in CDLA or CDLB engines ?


CDLA/CDLB use the same pump as all other and hence have the same piston size and volume.

RQUAHDPK and VHDP should only be changed when changing to aftermarket pump/internals (APR, HPFPupgrade.com, Autotech etc.).


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: _mumin_ on January 02, 2014, 03:20:57 AM
CDLA/CDLB use the same pump as all other and hence have the same piston size and volume.

RQUAHDPK and VHDP should only be changed when changing to aftermarket pump/internals (APR, HPFPupgrade.com, Autotech etc.).

Ok piston size is the same (RQUAHDPK) but stroke is 0.4mm bigger.And from my equations VHDP should be 16mm^2*3,14*5,4=271,43cm^3 and not 251cm^3. What You think ?


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Beaviz on January 02, 2014, 03:47:24 AM
Ok piston size is the same (RQUAHDPK) but stroke is 0.4mm bigger.And from my equations VHDP should be 16mm^2*3,14*5,4=271,43cm^3 and not 251cm^3. What You think ?

What makes you think that SKHDPMX would be .4mm more?


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: _mumin_ on January 02, 2014, 06:09:44 AM
What makes you think that SKHDPMX would be .4mm more?

I don't think ... check Yourself at 1D96E8 , this is file from Audi TTS with CDLB engine.


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: madboost on January 03, 2014, 04:55:59 PM
PWM duty cycle pulse of the lpfp is at KFFLAF.
You may also want to check KFNTBKS


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: nokiafix on January 06, 2014, 03:51:33 AM
Has anyone managed to get the correct technical data from the pump manufactures?


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: _mumin_ on January 06, 2014, 10:06:32 AM
Has anyone managed to get the correct technical data from the pump manufactures?


What data ?


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: nokiafix on January 06, 2014, 10:38:07 AM
Pistion area size and stroke


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: hammersword on January 16, 2014, 05:50:54 PM
you can either check them on software or measure them by removing the HPFP!

it is the same as KRKTE. If you don't know what injectors has an engine from stock, then go to KRKTE!


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: _mumin_ on January 19, 2014, 12:28:35 PM
here some info  ;D
Mazda MPS has the same HPFP pump as VAG cars .
http://www.corksport.com/blog/fuel-pump-comparison-part-2/ (http://www.corksport.com/blog/fuel-pump-comparison-part-2/)


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Beaviz on February 07, 2014, 02:22:51 PM
here some info  ;D
Mazda MPS has the same HPFP pump as VAG cars .
http://www.corksport.com/blog/fuel-pump-comparison-part-2/ (http://www.corksport.com/blog/fuel-pump-comparison-part-2/)

Great info there! Thanks!

This gives me the following calculation for my APR pump:
RQUAHDPK = ( 9.5 / 2 ) ^ 2 = 22.5625

Which inserted in the previous equation gives the following for VHDP:
22.5625 * 3,14 * 5 = 354.23


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: _mumin_ on February 10, 2014, 01:33:16 PM

Which inserted in the previous equation gives the following for VHDP:
22.5625 * 3,14 * 5 = 354.23

or
22.5625 * 3,14 * 5,4 = 382,57
if you have CDLx engine :)


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Beaviz on February 13, 2014, 01:02:39 PM
I can confirm that after changing the values to the above posted, the logged rail pressure is spot on with my APR pump.


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: msundercober on February 28, 2014, 03:38:17 PM
Autotech HPFP :

RQUAHDPK = ( 9.8 / 2 ) ^ 2 = 24,01

VHDP : 24,01 * pi* 5 = 377,1481980634546782774403381627

VHDP ( CDLx ) : 24,01 * pi * 5,4 = 407,32005390853105253963556521572

( referred to the article on the website )


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Claudietto81 on May 10, 2014, 10:18:27 AM
It was said in this topic that with TTRS/RS3 lpfp it is not necessary to change the pwm controller but only changing duty cycle in KFFLAF.
Seen that i don't know which dutycycle to apply i can use the OEM values of rs3 KFFLAF or i am completely wrong??
Thanks


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: BenR on May 15, 2014, 03:24:56 PM
Ive not actually changed KFFLAF as there is another 1x1 map that will give you a higher DC.


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: S2evo1 on May 28, 2014, 01:06:51 AM
Its abit strange as TTRS and RS3 have same VHDP as 2.0TFSI with OEM pump, but TTRS/RS3 pump have diffrent area and stroke on its OEM pump.

With the calculations used her OEM VHDP should be 25x3,14x4,5=353,25 but it is in OEM sw 251.00 same as 2.0TFSI with smaller pump?


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Beaviz on May 28, 2014, 04:52:01 AM
I agree! That does seem strange.

The same goes for the files _mumin_ has been looking at.

It could be interesting to take a look at the assembler code for this area to see if VHDP is actually used or what it is used for. I guess that sometimes the FR is not 100% correct.

What are the values for RQUAHDPK and SKHDPMX in the TTRS/RS3 files?


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: RaraK on May 28, 2014, 05:33:16 AM
I agree! That does seem strange.

The same goes for the files _mumin_ has been looking at.

It could be interesting to take a look at the assembler code for this area to see if VHDP is actually used or what it is used for. I guess that sometimes the FR is not 100% correct.

What are the values for RQUAHDPK and SKHDPMX in the TTRS/RS3 files?

factory cal shit!


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: RS-MAD on May 28, 2014, 06:59:47 AM
Its abit strange as TTRS and RS3 have same VHDP as 2.0TFSI with OEM pump, but TTRS/RS3 pump have diffrent area and stroke on its OEM pump.

With the calculations used her OEM VHDP should be 25x3,14x4,5=353,25 but it is in OEM sw 251.00 same as 2.0TFSI with smaller pump?
Its same in 5.0 TFSI software.


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: S2evo1 on May 29, 2014, 01:52:32 AM
I agree! That does seem strange.

The same goes for the files _mumin_ has been looking at.

It could be interesting to take a look at the assembler code for this area to see if VHDP is actually used or what it is used for. I guess that sometimes the FR is not 100% correct.

What are the values for RQUAHDPK and SKHDPMX in the TTRS/RS3 files?

Its 25 and 4.5 on TTRS/RS3


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Claudietto81 on June 04, 2014, 01:06:50 PM
Ive not actually changed KFFLAF as there is another 1x1 map that will give you a higher DC.
Thanks for the answer Ben, can you indicate the name of this single value? just to understand what are you talking about...


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: BenR on June 09, 2014, 08:58:37 PM
Thanks for the answer Ben, can you indicate the name of this single value? just to understand what are you talking about...

LEPWMMX


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Claudietto81 on June 11, 2014, 11:35:32 AM
So Ben basically you are saying that there is no need to modify KFFLAF but only to decrease the maximum dutycycle value (by LEPWMMX) until your PWM module won't go in overheating and the car won't shut down. Is it correct my thought??


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Beaviz on June 17, 2014, 03:18:23 AM
Do any of you have the stock values from PRNL1 and PGBDVHDO from an RS4 4.2 FSI?

I can read elsewhere that the RS4 PRV should open at 136bar/13.6MPa.

In the stock 2.0 TFSI file the values are 12.0MPa (PRNL1) and 11.8MPa (PGBDVHDO). According to the FR, PGBDVHDO is the "pressure limit in the high pressure rail where the pressure regulating valve opens". So I guess that this should be set to 13.6MPa when installing an RS4 PRV?

The FR says that PRNL1 is the "opening pressure of the pressure regulating valve". My guess would also be that this value should be 13.6MPa. But I sense that I misunderstood something here (my german is getting a bit rusty).

What are the difference between PRNL1 and PGBDVHDO? Is PRNL1 only used for diagnose and should hence be a little higher than the actual value where the PRV opens?


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: 99pwr on June 17, 2014, 10:03:31 AM
Do any of you have the stock values from PRNL1 and PGBDVHDO from an RS4 4.2 FSI?

PRNL1 don't exist in RS4 4.2FSI file. PGBDVHDO is zero.


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Beaviz on June 17, 2014, 11:36:05 AM
PRNL1 don't exist in RS4 4.2FSI file. PGBDVHDO is zero.

Thanks man! :) Even though I did not get much wiser. ;)


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: nokiafix on July 08, 2014, 10:20:16 AM
One issue I am seeing on higher hp setups with upgrade HPFP is the pressure creeps above the requested pressure at higher rpm 6200rpm onwards.   One car I have in now running 155bar release valve and requests 140bar, by 7000rpm this pressure creeps to 150bar.   Another one is a hybrid setup 414hp with rs4 valve with rail pressure at  131bar , this one at 6500rpm creeps into 136bar and open u the valve at which point the lpfp %dc maxes out.  keep the pressure below the valve break of point and lpfp rail %dc is around 20% lower.  
Has anyone seen this before?  I notice it more on the CDL engine with cams with the extra .4 mm on the lobe.

I am thinking KLNEHDP could be the issue?  This seems to be the relation to the lobe position v stoke of the piston and is used for the N276 needle control, 3 cycles of 120deg for each full cam rotation

http://www.volkspage.net/technik/ssp/ssp/SSP_334_d1.pdf


I have the logs on my other laptop I will try to post them up, but for now its similar to the logs below

(http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/4301/110bod.jpg)
  
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i15/cruizin01/GTI/more230.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/QoGVW4G.png)


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: BenR on July 08, 2014, 08:06:33 PM
Do any of you have the stock values from PRNL1 and PGBDVHDO from an RS4 4.2 FSI?

I can read elsewhere that the RS4 PRV should open at 136bar/13.6MPa.

In the stock 2.0 TFSI file the values are 12.0MPa (PRNL1) and 11.8MPa (PGBDVHDO). According to the FR, PGBDVHDO is the "pressure limit in the high pressure rail where the pressure regulating valve opens". So I guess that this should be set to 13.6MPa when installing an RS4 PRV?

The FR says that PRNL1 is the "opening pressure of the pressure regulating valve". My guess would also be that this value should be 13.6MPa. But I sense that I misunderstood something here (my german is getting a bit rusty).

What are the difference between PRNL1 and PGBDVHDO? Is PRNL1 only used for diagnose and should hence be a little higher than the actual value where the PRV opens?

This is a good find for MED9.1. Ive had mostly good luck with just changing the KFPR maps but i have had times on some cars where changing these maps resulted on the specified not being what i set it to. PRNL1 and PGBDVHDO may be the answer. We need to also consider the mode the car is currently in.


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Claudietto81 on July 09, 2014, 09:43:07 AM
Hi guys i have an issue. Basically i installed on 2.0 tfsi BWA with gtx2867 an RS3 lpfp with stock bwa pwm controller. But the problem is that the car shuts down at idle after 20-30 minutes. I expected the car could shut down at high loads like in 4th gear at wot or similar and in this way i could act on the duty cycle of lpfp. But at idle?? someone has had the same problem? any solution for this issue? thank you very much to everybody


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: BenR on July 09, 2014, 06:01:01 PM
Ive had the same problem. You need to look at your DC maps for the LPFP control and make sure they dont go over 95% ;)


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: S2evo1 on July 09, 2014, 10:46:46 PM
Hi guys i have an issue. Basically i installed on 2.0 tfsi BWA with gtx2867 an RS3 lpfp with stock bwa pwm controller. But the problem is that the car shuts down at idle after 20-30 minutes. I expected the car could shut down at high loads like in 4th gear at wot or similar and in this way i could act on the duty cycle of lpfp. But at idle?? someone has had the same problem? any solution for this issue? thank you very much to everybody

The BWA LPFP controller is not made to run the RS3 pump. There is a reson the TTRS/RS3 have a complete diffrent LPFP controller.


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Claudietto81 on July 10, 2014, 05:41:34 AM
I use stock controler with TTRS/RS3 pumps.

The only need is to recalibrate the controler's DC.
I did a GTX3071R last days and at 8200RPM I had 3.6bar @ 2bar boost with 84%DC
If you don't recalibrate well the controler then you will face an engine shut off at high speeds...

About the HPFP there are more maps like piston diameter, piston surface etc
But have you seen what Hummersword wrote??
Theoretically there is the possibility to use the stock controller with RS3/TTRS low pressure pump without swapping PWM controller that anyway interferes with the gateway.
Adding to this this issue it is very strange because the car doesn't shut down at high speeds but at idle after 20 minutes...probably there is another single value to set because I changed the dutycycle and nothing happened. Any idea?


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: hammersword on July 11, 2014, 07:30:45 AM
I am tuning and installing TTRS/RS3 LPFP since 3 years ago when in Greece and in Europe wrote that "TTRS pump doesn't work on 2.0TFSi, lets install a Walbro255 and an ON/OFF button"

You can control the TTRS/RS3 LPFP with stock PWM controller of Golf 5 or S3 etc, the only need is a new recalibration of the PWM map and of course not only values but axis also...

Never had or have any problem and then your LPFP system is capable up to 650hp (tested on S3 GTX3071R that I have made and running 580hp at 2.35bar ct)
Actual inj time 6ms @ 160bar HPFP @ 8000RPM
Actual LPFP pressure 4.8bar @ 8000RPM @ 76%DC

all answers are in the software and FR doc, no need to install RS4 PWM or make patends or extra lines with external pumps etc...

cheers,
Fotis


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Claudietto81 on July 21, 2014, 09:53:14 AM
Hammersword thanks for the answer your contribution is really precious.
In past I remember i swapped RS3 duty cycle and nothing happened i still had the same issues. So probably  i assume we also need to change single values like maximum, minum and initializing duty cycle values?
Thanks


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Nottingham on July 21, 2014, 12:32:19 PM
Did I understand correctly that the stock LPFP controller overheats when the duty cycle increases beyond certain point?

In that case the controller could probably be strengthened by improving the cooling.
The current draw of the fuel pump increases at higher duty cycle so the heat caused by the increased currents would logically be the background of the issue.

I assume (and hope) the control unit doesn't have a LDO inside it but uses PWM modulation from start to end?

Based on ELSA the fuel pumps should flow as follows (minimum):

200-265hp (1K0919051AS) pump:

992cm³/min @ 10V
1240cm³/min @ 11V
1520cm³/min @ 12V

RS3/TT-RS pump (8J0919051D / E):

1600cm³/min @ 10V
1840cm³/min @ 11V
2120cm³/min @ 12V

So at 12V (~88% effective duty) the non-RS pump would be able to flow fuel only worth of 220g/s of air at 0.8 AFR (((1520/60)*0,741)*11,76)
Likewise the RS-pump would flow fuel worth of 308g/s of air per second at the same duty cycle.

Therefore at 100% duty cycle the absolute maximum flow for the non-RS pump would be around 355hp (crank)?

0.741 = Fuel weight (grams per cubic centimeter)
11.76 = 0.8 AFR

Maybe I'll source a broken stock controller and pop it open.
I got some background in VRM and PWM circuit design anyways ;D


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: BenR on July 21, 2014, 05:23:42 PM
Personally i found the stock LPFP controller with the RS3/TTRS LPFP worked ok but beyond 500HP the RS3 controller worked a bit better, allowed more fuel. Im not familiar with the electronics though, the only downside of the RS3 controller is it stays on after you turn the car off and you need to cycle the key again to turn it off. Not sure if there is a software change needed to stop this...


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: S2evo1 on July 21, 2014, 11:07:04 PM
Did I understand correctly that the stock LPFP controller overheats when the duty cycle increases beyond certain point?

In that case the controller could probably be strengthened by improving the cooling.
The current draw of the fuel pump increases at higher duty cycle so the heat caused by the increased currents would logically be the background of the issue.

I assume (and hope) the control unit doesn't have a LDO inside it but uses PWM modulation from start to end?

Based on ELSA the fuel pumps should flow as follows (minimum):

200-265hp (1K0919051AS) pump:

992cm³/min @ 10V
1240cm³/min @ 11V
1520cm³/min @ 12V

RS3/TT-RS pump (8J0919051D / E):

1600cm³/min @ 10V
1840cm³/min @ 11V
2120cm³/min @ 12V

So at 12V (~88% effective duty) the non-RS pump would be able to flow fuel only worth of 220g/s of air at 0.8 AFR (((1520/60)*0,741)*11,76)
Likewise the RS-pump would flow fuel worth of 308g/s of air per second at the same duty cycle.

Therefore at 100% duty cycle the absolute maximum flow for the non-RS pump would be around 355hp (crank)?

0.741 = Fuel weight (grams per cubic centimeter)
11.76 = 0.8 AFR

Maybe I'll source a broken stock controller and pop it open.
I got some background in VRM and PWM circuit design anyways ;D


This is why the TTRS/RS3 LPFP controller has cooling finns and are placed under the car and also the cables is bigger.

The controller is totaly seald and is flash able with software.


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: S2evo1 on July 21, 2014, 11:10:07 PM
Personally i found the stock LPFP controller with the RS3/TTRS LPFP worked ok but beyond 500HP the RS3 controller worked a bit better, allowed more fuel. Im not familiar with the electronics though, the only downside of the RS3 controller is it stays on after you turn the car off and you need to cycle the key again to turn it off. Not sure if there is a software change needed to stop this...

Its should be possible to recode the car to make the RS3 controller to work (I have done this on a Mk6 GTI but its MED17) I will test this on a Golf R to.


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: BenR on July 22, 2014, 04:29:11 PM
Its should be possible to recode the car to make the RS3 controller to work (I have done this on a Mk6 GTI but its MED17) I will test this on a Golf R to.

This would be awesome, ive had a quick look at the RS3 file but cant really find any differences but havent looked to hard yet.


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: S2evo1 on July 22, 2014, 10:16:47 PM
This would be awesome, ive had a quick look at the RS3 file but cant really find any differences but havent looked to hard yet.

You need to stop looking in the Engine ECU sw  ;)


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Claudietto81 on November 02, 2014, 06:58:15 AM
Hi guys I have a question for you
I was looking at these fuel rail maps: FWPHDR and FWIHDR. Can someone explain me how they work? There is the need to change them in a stage3? I have seen that, changing the values in these maps, the injection time changes in the logs.
Thanks to everybody


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: hammersword on November 03, 2014, 05:13:33 PM
the whole game on LPFP calibration is the DC map calibration axis. RS3/TTRS LPFP flows double more than BWA LPFP!
Let the ECU know that the car has installed a double size LPFP and don't just cut Duty Cycle

No need for TTRS/RS3 PWM, the BWA or BHZ is more than enough to control the big LPFP


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Nottingham on November 03, 2014, 09:06:52 PM
the whole game on LPFP calibration is the DC map calibration axis. RS3/TTRS LPFP flows double more than BWA LPFP!
Let the ECU know that the car has installed a double size LPFP and don't just cut Duty Cycle

No need for TTRS/RS3 PWM, the BWA or BHZ is more than enough to control the big LPFP

KFFLAF is the main map for this?
What about the maximum flow values (PEKP), are they required?


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Claudietto81 on November 12, 2014, 10:48:43 AM
Hy guys I wonder why when you log your LPFP at WOT the duty cycle you see by log doesn't match never the duty cycle in the dump. Basically it is all the time the maximum allowable duty cycle value, for istance 92%. If you look at fuel pressure in the log at wot at high rpms it will be around 3,5 or 4 bar. But for such fuel pressure doesn't correspond maximum duty cycle in KFFLAF but for istance 60%. It is normal this mismatching? in the meaning it is normal to see all the time maximum duty at WOT?
Thanks


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: mec on November 12, 2014, 12:49:03 PM
Hy guys I wonder why when you log your LPFP at WOT the duty cycle you see by log doesn't match never the duty cycle in the dump. Basically it is all the time the maximum allowable duty cycle value, for istance 92%. If you look at fuel pressure in the log at wot at high rpms it will be around 3,5 or 4 bar. But for such fuel pressure doesn't correspond maximum duty cycle in KFFLAF but for istance 60%. It is normal this mismatching? in the meaning it is normal to see all the time maximum duty at WOT?
Thanks


Sounds like your pump is on its way out, the controller is pushing higher DC to try to get it to meet demanded pressure, but its not able to so DC stays pegged at 92%


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Claudietto81 on November 13, 2014, 04:38:06 AM
It is strange because i have seen this behaviour on the most cars i logged. The last one a scirocco R with HPFP loba, 76 skat exhaust, and evoms intake. Duty cycle was 92% and fuel pressure around 4 or 4.5 bar something like that. I'd like to understand if it is normal such behaviour or not.


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: eliotroyano on June 27, 2016, 05:44:30 PM
Friends I have read the whole thread but I still have some doubts that I will like to ask . Sorry if my question is no so intelligent or dumb.
Ok about LPFP control I have read some times about PWM controller and fuel pump itself have a basic variable applied, fuel pump DC (duty cycle) based in the  low pressure fuel system, "pressure".

Then my big "dumb" question is how is controlled this pressure:
1) by fixed or static map? or
2) it is variable or has an adaptative logic system based in high pressure fuel system, requested AFRs, actual AFRs, etc.... something like a PID control?


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: majorahole on July 08, 2016, 11:49:27 AM
2


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: littco on July 09, 2016, 02:14:22 AM
Friends I have read the whole thread but I still have some doubts that I will like to ask . Sorry if my question is no so intelligent or dumb.
Ok about LPFP control I have read some times about PWM controller and fuel pump itself have a basic variable applied, fuel pump DC (duty cycle) based in the  low pressure fuel system, "pressure".

Then my big "dumb" question is how is controlled this pressure:
1) by fixed or static map? or
2) it is variable or has an adaptative logic system based in high pressure fuel system, requested AFRs, actual AFRs, etc.... something like a PID control?

I believe its a variable map that works of the requested and actual pressure, and in cases where the LPFP is weak or fault then the DC has to rise in order to compensate for the low pressures, this then requires higher PW and causes the controller to over heat and shut off, and why some people get that "fuel cut" until it cools down, replacing the pump fixes the issue.

Also if you fit the larger TTRS LPFP and don't amend the map accordingly then again it over heats.



Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: eliotroyano on July 11, 2016, 09:51:15 AM
I believe its a variable map that works of the requested and actual pressure, and in cases where the LPFP is weak or fault then the DC has to rise in order to compensate for the low pressures, this then requires higher PW and causes the controller to over heat and shut off, and why some people get that "fuel cut" until it cools down, replacing the pump fixes the issue.

Nice answer littco, I supposed that too.

Also if you fit the larger TTRS LPFP and don't amend the map accordingly then again it over heats.

But here is where I have the big doubt, if the previous thinking is right why should we need to change LPFP DC map for a different fuel pump or PWM controller? . I mean if the LPFP DC map is basically based in a requested and actual pressure with some other added variables, why we need to tweak related fuel pump maps?


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: gman86 on July 11, 2016, 04:05:13 PM
Nice answer littco, I supposed that too.

But here is where I have the big doubt, if the previous thinking is right why should we need to change LPFP DC map for a different fuel pump or PWM controller? . I mean if the LPFP DC map is basically based in a requested and actual pressure with some other added variables, why we need to tweak related fuel pump maps?

KFFLAF is a basic duty cycle map that runs up to 92%. If you try and run the higher current pump off the stock pwm controller at those duty cycles, it overheats. There is no PID for the pressure, it runs very basic.


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: littco on July 12, 2016, 12:48:37 AM
Nice answer littco, I supposed that too.

But here is where I have the big doubt, if the previous thinking is right why should we need to change LPFP DC map for a different fuel pump or PWM controller? . I mean if the LPFP DC map is basically based in a requested and actual pressure with some other added variables, why we need to tweak related fuel pump maps?

I think the previous post answered it, the current on the 2 pumps is different so the larger draw causes the controller to over heat and hence why you must lower the map to stop this..


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: eliotroyano on July 12, 2016, 04:09:30 AM
I think the previous post answered it, the current on the 2 pumps is different so the larger draw causes the controller to over heat and hence why you must lower the map to stop this..

Ok got it........ ;)


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: littco on July 12, 2016, 01:30:12 PM
Just for note on the fueling


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: littco on July 12, 2016, 01:31:29 PM
Just for note on the fueling


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: littco on July 12, 2016, 01:39:16 PM

Regarding the LPFP with increase in RPM

"The assignment is done via the map KFNTBKS.  At high speeds,
and average fuel temperatures, it is necessary to increase the set pressure on the low pressure side, because otherwise the
Volumetric efficiency of the HDP may be inadmissible small. In hot start case is connected to the set in PSNHSLL target pressure."




Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: littco on July 13, 2016, 12:46:00 PM
High pressure pump info..

The AMSV function is used to control the HDP2. The HDP2 is a high-pressure fuel pump with adjustable
F¨ordermenge. It works on the principle of a cam-driven single-cylinder piston pump.
The piston compresses during his Aufw¨artstbewegung the enclosed space in the cylinder fuel, as long as a
controllable valve, the quantity control valve MSV called, which connects the pump chamber with the low pressure chamber,
closed is. Once the pressure in the pump ¨uberschreitet the pressure in the high pressure chamber, the fuel is against
a R¨uckschlagventil the high-pressure chamber toward ejected. If the MSV opened before finishing the F¨orderhubs breaks
the pressure in the pump chamber together, the R¨uckschlagventil includes the high-pressure chamber and the fuel flows back
in the low-pressure chamber.
For setting the F¨ordermenge the MSV is closed from UT the pump cam to a certain stroke.
In the AMSV function of the closing time of the MSV as angle dwmsvs_w in degrees crankshaft before BDC pump
calculated. The angle dwmsvs_w resulting from conversion of Anzugsverz¨ogerung TANMSV about the speed in a
Angle. The dependence of Anzugsverz¨ogerung of the battery voltage is ftamsvub_w by Einrechung Factor
considered. ftamsvub_w arises dependent on ubsqf from the map KLAMSVUB.
The ¨Offnungszeitpunkt the MSV is in AMSV function as angle dwmsvo_w ABDC pump in degrees of crankshaft
provided. The angle dwmsvo_w calculated from a pilot control component dwmsvvst_w from the function% VSTMSV,
in which the demand control is calculated, and a proportion of the control loop prdr_w (% HDR). The proportion of
Controller is implemented via the factor FDWMSVRDR in angle. The addition of both components is the maximum
F¨orderbereich - e.g. from 0 to 180 degrees of crankshaft (Two cam pump) - limited, with 180 degree full F¨orderhub
and 0 degrees no stroke mean. In practice, the pump still calls at high speeds even at dwmsvo_w = 0◦ a
small amount. To display the minimum quantity is therefore negative at dwmsvo_w the entire drive to | dwmsvo_w |
moved forward. The maximum F¨orderbereich is applied by the characteristic KLDWMSVMN and DWMSVMX.
In addition to the control start dwmsvs_w and dwmsvo_w the control end a condition triggering active B_msvact
formed in block BBMSV. During the start-up or if the required F¨ordermenge falls below the minimum F¨ordermenge,
is interrupted, the control of the pump. At the same time about the condition B_hdrres the scheme in a
neutral state added. is in systems without pressure reduction function for CWDAF = 0 at Schubabschaltbereitschaft
(B_sabte) or for CWDAF = 2 at Schubabschalten (B_sa) controlling MSV and the rail pressure control is deactivated
(B_msvact = 0, B_hdrres = 1). In systems with pressure reduction function (CWDAF must be set to 1) is the rail pressure control
and Anteuerung the MSV in coasting mode active.
By B_msvoff can from the diagnostic function% DKVBDE the control of the pump to be interrupted, if this result
special Notlaufanforderungen is necessary.
If the adjusted maximum F¨orderbereich ¨uberschritten is the bit B_hdrba an anti-wind-up functionality
ausgel¨ost in the controller in the function% HDR, that is the integrator is stopped at the value at which it is currently located.


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: littco on July 13, 2016, 01:17:26 PM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cit56QE5UHo

Here's a video on the Lpfp and upgrading and reasoning behind it .

Maybe of help


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: gman86 on July 13, 2016, 02:52:59 PM
FR blurb

Trick for translating from the FR is paste the text into Notepad, press CTRL+H (Search and replace), in the "Find what" box paste in the umlaut (¨) and leave the "Replace with" box empty. Press Replace All. Paste newly umlaut free text into Google translate and score and extra 10-15% words.


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: gman86 on July 13, 2016, 02:54:03 PM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cit56QE5UHo

Here's a video on the Lpfp and upgrading and reasoning behind it .

Maybe of help

I watched this earlier and it was painful to watch. He keeps mixing his words up and generally talking mince.


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Tezotto01 on October 10, 2016, 07:40:33 PM
anyone can find PRNL1 this file?


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: nyet on October 10, 2016, 07:50:12 PM
I watched this earlier and it was painful to watch. He keeps mixing his words up and generally talking mince.

Pretty much sums up every instructional youtube video there is.



Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: turbo944s2 on November 16, 2016, 05:56:43 AM
2008 B7 A4. I took a stab at a TT-RS Fuel pump on a stock controller. My car began to run lean around 4800 rpm with a MAF reading of 326 grams/sec. I adjusted the axis and the duty cycle to compensate for the fuel pressure loss, it appears to worked but when I get up to 6500+ rpms the fuel pressure dips down to 2.7 bar and the throttle body starts to close. I plan on modifying the axis again to reflect higher maf readings and changing the fuel filter because it is original. I'll let you guys know of the outcome.


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: gman86 on November 26, 2016, 05:13:14 PM
2008 B7 A4. I took a stab at a TT-RS Fuel pump on a stock controller. My car began to run lean around 4800 rpm with a MAF reading of 326 grams/sec. I adjusted the axis and the duty cycle to compensate for the fuel pressure loss, it appears to worked but when I get up to 6500+ rpms the fuel pressure dips down to 2.7 bar and the throttle body starts to close. I plan on modifying the axis again to reflect higher maf readings and changing the fuel filter because it is original. I'll let you guys know of the outcome.

Your interpretation of the map axis data is wrong. The g/min axis is fuel through the injectors, not MAF. The kPa axis is desired low pressure as specified in KFNTBKS.

Just edit KFFLAF so that the maximum duty cycle it'll ever use is 80%.


Title: Re: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: turbo944s2 on November 30, 2016, 06:09:55 PM
Your interpretation of the map axis data is wrong. The g/min axis is fuel through the injectors, not MAF. The kPa axis is desired low pressure as specified in KFNTBKS.

Just edit KFFLAF so that the maximum duty cycle it'll ever use is 80%.
Thank you for the correction.

Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: teobolo on January 08, 2017, 11:06:46 AM
Your interpretation of the map axis data is wrong. The g/min axis is fuel through the injectors, not MAF. The kPa axis is desired low pressure as specified in KFNTBKS.

Just edit KFFLAF so that the maximum duty cycle it'll ever use is 80%.
Hi , i m running out of fuel(i also use the fuel pump from tt-rs) and i have made the changes above . I got it correct or i understand it the wrong way?With my changes i estimate that i demand the LPFP to follow the line to 600kpa value .


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: gman86 on January 09, 2017, 01:37:14 AM
Hi , i m running out of fuel(i also use the fuel pump from tt-rs) and i have made the changes above . I got it correct or i understand it the wrong way?With my changes i estimate that i demand the LPFP to follow the line to 600kpa value .

Going by your KFNTBKS, you'll spend most of your time in the 500-580kPa range for which you don't appear to be running enough duty cycle. I hold 5.7bar at the red line in block 231 with the following attached.

Also, you'll need to limit your duty cycle. I've found values above 82% will cause controller cut. 77% has enough safety margin and the pump has no problem supplying the required fuel.



Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: teobolo on January 09, 2017, 01:46:30 AM
Thanks for your info!
When you are saying to limit my duty cycle you mean to lower LEPWMMX ?


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: gman86 on January 09, 2017, 02:13:49 AM
Thanks for your info!
When you are saying to limit my duty cycle you mean to lower LEPWMMX ?

Yes, set that too. Mine is called at 81.9%, but my KFFLAF is adjusted as per attachment (5% lower than where I've found the controllers critical limit).


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: littco on February 23, 2017, 01:52:45 PM
Sort related to the hpfp.

Looking at fuel pressure sensors and running the 200bar in a k03 car for an upgraded turbo.
According to FR the fuel pressure calibration map is KLKDSBKS which on all the ols files I have is a 4x1 map with voltage 0 -4.9v which is the max voltage as per the scalar and a scale.

Now this is a scaled map and different sensors ie 150 and 200 should have different scaling however all the KLKDSBKS maps I've seen are all the same 0-1300, regardless is its the 150 or 200 bar sensor or map. So am.i looking at the wrong map? As I'd expect to find different values for the different maps/sensors.

I had a conversation with Beavis, and he was under the impression  the maps on older versions where 2x1 and newer ones 1x4 and 14mpa and 20mpa respectively which in my mind would make sense.

Any ideas please.


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: gman86 on February 23, 2017, 02:50:36 PM
Sort related to the hpfp.

Looking at fuel pressure sensors and running the 200bar in a k03 car for an upgraded turbo.
According to FR the fuel pressure calibration map is KLKDSBKS which on all the ols files I have is a 4x1 map with voltage 0 -4.9v which is the max voltage as per the scalar and a scale.

Now this is a scaled map and different sensors ie 150 and 200 should have different scaling however all the KLKDSBKS maps I've seen are all the same 0-1300, regardless is its the 150 or 200 bar sensor or map. So am.i looking at the wrong map? As I'd expect to find different values for the different maps/sensors.

I had a conversation with Beavis, and he was under the impression  the maps on older versions where 2x1 and newer ones 1x4 and 14mpa and 20mpa respectively which in my mind would make sense.

Any ideas please.

KLKDSBKS is the scaling for the low pressure sensor. The data is kPa, and 1300kPa is 13bar. KLPRAIL is the voltage scale for the high pressure sensor in the rail. This map differs between the K03 and K04 cars.



Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: littco on February 24, 2017, 04:16:07 AM
KLKDSBKS is the scaling for the low pressure sensor. The data is kPa, and 1300kPa is 13bar. KLPRAIL is the voltage scale for the high pressure sensor in the rail. This map differs between the K03 and K04 cars.



Thank you , That's exactly what I was looking for,

To add the early ones where 2 columns and the later ones are 3 columns so if you want to add a 200 bar to the earlier cars the you just need 0 and 20 in the cells


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: gman86 on February 24, 2017, 05:10:11 AM
Thank you , That's exactly what I was looking for,

To add the early ones where 2 columns and the later ones are 3 columns so if you want to add a 200 bar to the earlier cars the you just need 0 and 20 in the cells

The 3x1 maps just have a reference for 0bar. Acts like a sort of "pull down" resistor I suppose for rail voltage. 2x1 just gives values for 2.5v and 4.5v


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Tezotto01 on March 06, 2017, 12:55:47 PM
Can anyone help me with this?
I have already adjusted the KFPRSOLHOM, KFPRSOLHMM, KFPRSOLSCH, KFPRSOLKH and KFPRSOLHKS maps to request 13MPa but by logging the requested pressure does not exceed 109.99Bar.

Anyone have any tips?


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Tezotto01 on March 06, 2017, 12:58:04 PM
8P0907115T


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: gman86 on March 06, 2017, 03:39:20 PM
8P0907115T

KLPRMAX?


Title: Re: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Tezotto01 on March 06, 2017, 03:42:02 PM
KLPRMAX?
Yes

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Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Tezotto01 on March 06, 2017, 04:03:05 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170306/79968ccfbc2113b20a30ed49a747809e.jpg)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170306/1be47dbcfb82753a4bfaece73f1bb587.jpg)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170306/eca18497735ca34d27c5e1872b180dda.jpg)

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Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: gman86 on March 06, 2017, 05:07:16 PM
You've defined that wrong. Change the address fro 1D9AA9 to 1D9AA8


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Tezotto01 on March 06, 2017, 08:25:41 PM
Many thanks for this, now the table makes sense!

I changed the values from 11 to 13, even so the pressure is limited by 109.99 in the log ...


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Tezotto01 on March 06, 2017, 09:05:41 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170307/965d08cc5d0f1e041c2c9b2dda2aee57.jpg)

Enviado de meu XT1033 usando Tapatalk


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: teobolo on March 07, 2017, 12:21:23 AM
when you log your HPFP what is the request you get? Is it 130 bar?Are you running an updated HPFP intermals ?


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Tezotto01 on March 07, 2017, 02:21:27 AM
In my records the requested pressure does not exceed 109,99Bar.
My HPFP is OEM.


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: IamwhoIam on March 07, 2017, 03:07:17 AM
You've defined that wrong. Change the address fro 1D9AA9 to 1D9AA8

That's wrong, the correct address for the map is 1D9AAA not A8, and it's exactly that last value that's not defined in his map anymore that makes it limit to 110 bar.

:o


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: gman86 on March 07, 2017, 03:57:50 AM
That's wrong, the correct address for the map is 1D9AAA not A8, and it's exactly that last value that's not defined in his map anymore that makes it limit to 110 bar.

:o

I've found that incorrect definition is usually because the map address is a single byte higher than it should be.

Attached is taken from my Golf R - 1037510589. Top map 1DA822, bottom 1DA823.



Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Tezotto01 on March 07, 2017, 03:58:03 AM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170307/ae4136fc90937976181ab76e84987b44.jpg)

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Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Tezotto01 on March 07, 2017, 03:58:29 AM
Now explain my limitation ....


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: gman86 on March 07, 2017, 04:00:55 AM
Now explain my limitation ....

IamwhoIam was right with your address. Looks like you've still limited fuel to 110bar when the engine at 10 degrees C or above ....


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: turbo944s2 on March 07, 2017, 06:01:56 AM
I'm going through the same issue, Ill see if my definition is off as well. I would have never found this, thanks alot guys!


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Tezotto01 on March 07, 2017, 08:14:17 AM
Bingo!

Now the requested pressure sets at 129.99Bar.

Thanks friends, now I will move on to the next step of tuning.


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: IamwhoIam on March 08, 2017, 01:42:13 AM
LOL you guys are funny


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: turbo944s2 on March 08, 2017, 05:17:41 AM
Mine works too! I am running 150 bar and I am not outspooling my HPFP anymore. Thanks guys


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Tezotto01 on March 09, 2017, 04:24:37 AM
Mine works too! I am running 150 bar and I am not outspooling my HPFP anymore. Thanks guys

150 bar???
I thought the mechanical valve would open with 130 Bar ...


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: turbo944s2 on March 09, 2017, 06:22:32 AM
You can get custom valves up to 200 bar i think.


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: darkon on April 01, 2017, 09:33:48 AM
Are there any infos about KLLFPRSG, what does the values means in detail and how they coheres with other maps, especially with FNGPRS?


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Praga on June 29, 2017, 07:56:55 AM
Send me the MED9 file you are working on, I'll take a look and define them.

Hi Guys

Great topic. Also struggling to find RQUAHDPK and VHDP on my Seat TFSi file. I am currently running a Autotech hpfp. Any help is appreciated.

Thank you



Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Khendal on November 20, 2017, 10:34:02 AM
Guys is there a way to keep the rail up to 175 also at high rpm ? I have this problem... till 6800-7000 the rail is ok 175 bar but over those rpm LPFP and Rail went down to much...and car is lean, inj timing raise up ...etc....

This are some logs to see this strange behaviour... what i miss?



Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: tfsikiller on November 20, 2017, 01:11:05 PM
Hi Guys

Great topic. Also struggling to find RQUAHDPK and VHDP on my Seat TFSi file. I am currently running a Autotech hpfp. Any help is appreciated.

Thank you




1D90DE=RQUAHDPK

 1D932E= VHDP



Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: gman86 on November 21, 2017, 12:35:58 AM
Guys is there a way to keep the rail up to 175 also at high rpm ? I have this problem... till 6800-7000 the rail is ok 175 bar but over those rpm LPFP and Rail went down to much...and car is lean, inj timing raise up ...etc....

This are some logs to see this strange behaviour... what i miss?



Post full logs. 001. 032, 230, 231.


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: birchbark506 on March 26, 2018, 11:06:48 AM
For uprated hpfp what do you change map VHDP to and what do you change RQUAHDPK I use vis motorsport


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Khendal on March 26, 2018, 12:10:21 PM
For uprated hpfp what do you change map VHDP to and what do you change RQUAHDPK I use vis motorsport
If i remember well there were 3 stepof vis... but now only stage 1 and 2.
Which one have you hot?


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: nubcake on March 26, 2018, 01:55:26 PM
For uprated hpfp what do you change map VHDP to and what do you change RQUAHDPK I use vis motorsport

It's basically physical dimensions of the HPFP piston and chamber, you can measure the piston if you open it up.
Or just a "ballpark" percentage change of the piston area and then volume re-calculation will do, if you don't want to open it. Adjust later if control looks wonky.


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: birchbark506 on March 26, 2018, 02:28:53 PM
I got the stage 1 kit


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: birchbark506 on March 31, 2018, 05:31:32 AM
I guess vis motorsports is 10mm is piston size inside how would you do the conversion to edit the map?


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: IamwhoIam on March 31, 2018, 05:37:27 AM
I guess vis motorsports is 10mm is piston size inside how would you do the conversion to edit the map?

Just calculate it, like everyone does


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: birchbark506 on April 05, 2018, 11:31:30 AM
is this the right way for the  calculation
RQUAHDPK = ( 10 / 2 ) ^ 2  what dose the ^ mean when doing the calculation i tried but i didn't get close to what it should be


 for VHDP it would  be what RQUAHDPK =  then x 3.14 x 5?



Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Khendal on April 05, 2018, 03:16:52 PM
is this the right way for the  calculation
RQUAHDPK = ( 10 / 2 ) ^ 2  what dose the ^ mean when doing the calculation i tried but i didn't get close to what it should be


 for VHDP it would  be what RQUAHDPK =  then x 3.14 x 5?



^ means for example  2 ^ 2 = 4

X ^ n = multiply X with X self for n time ...    4 ^ 5 = 4*4*4*4*4

In your example ( 10 / 2 ) ^ 2 =  5 ^ 2 = 5 * 5 = 25



Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: birchbark506 on April 05, 2018, 05:17:12 PM
The  for VHDP would be 25x3.14x5= 392.5 dose that sound correct

Would SKHDPMX stay stock since it uses stock spring?


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Khendal on April 06, 2018, 06:36:17 PM
The  for VHDP would be 25x3.14x5= 392.5 dose that sound correct

Would SKHDPMX stay stock since it uses stock spring?

Is it CDL engine ? If yes SKHDPMX is different...and also VHDP result :)


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: gman86 on April 07, 2018, 03:57:54 AM
Is it CDL engine ? If yes SKHDPMX is different...and also VHDP result :)

I suspect my posts have went "missing". I did post that SKHDPMX isn't anything to do with spring, it's the stroke of the inlet cam.

CDLs have 0.4mm more stroke than A and B series EA113s.


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: birchbark506 on April 07, 2018, 04:47:18 AM
My engine is BPY so I'd say mine is B series ea113 and I dont touch SKHDPMX


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: gman86 on April 07, 2018, 05:17:41 AM
My engine is BPY so I'd say mine is B series ea113 and I dont touch SKHDPMX

Unless you fit a CDL cam, leave it stock


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: birchbark506 on April 07, 2018, 09:52:27 AM
no i didn't change the cam i left it as a BPY cam
When using a uprated HPFP its a must to Change map RQUAHDPK and VHDP is that correct?
im waiting on my RS4 to show up to up my fuel from 130 bars to maybe 140 bar.


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Khendal on April 07, 2018, 01:53:04 PM
I suspect my posts have went "missing". I did post that SKHDPMX isn't anything to do with spring, it's the stroke of the inlet cam.

CDLs have 0.4mm more stroke than A and B series EA113s.

Indeed what i said... if it is CDL engine...the formula is different :)


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: birchbark506 on April 08, 2018, 07:12:33 AM
Tha is guys I not touch that 3rd map since i am.not running CDL cam's I'll do some logs and see if my request and actual hits around I think 129.5 is when the stock fprv opens up, I'm having high ltft around 10-13% and stft sits around -2 to -3%


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: prj on April 08, 2018, 07:59:49 AM
Your trims have nothing to do with your pump control whatsoever.


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: birchbark506 on April 08, 2018, 10:24:46 AM
I didnt think so, but I'm still new at learning, sorry


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: prj on April 08, 2018, 12:35:12 PM
The pump control you can see if you log requested vs actual rail pressure. If it's tracking quite well, you're good.
Fuel trims can be for example injector settings, maf settings or fkkvs depending on how much your car is modified.


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: birchbark506 on April 08, 2018, 01:04:10 PM
I didnt touch my injectors setting or maf settings  or fkkvs and I have 3" catless downpipe,  axle back exhaust K&N typhoon cold air in take, gfb dv+ and a godspeed twin inner cooler, stage 1 vis motorsports hpfp stock lpfp


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: prj on April 08, 2018, 01:33:27 PM
That intake is gonna skew maf readings that's why you have issues with the fuel trims.


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Khendal on April 08, 2018, 02:42:18 PM
That intake is gonna skew maf readings that's why you have issues with the fuel trims.

FKKVS Top left zone...is the solution to the trim ?


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: gman86 on April 08, 2018, 02:47:17 PM
FKKVS Top left zone...is the solution to the trim ?

FKKVS is injection correction. KFKHFM is MAF correction.

Since the trims seem to be thrown out by the intake, I'd say working on KFKHFM would be the best start.

Clear fault codes, do a 4th gear run from as low RPM as possible to red line and log Lambda control. Stick 5-7% across KFKHFM and repeat and observe the difference. From there, you should be able to figure out where needs less or more correction and dial in more accurately. Alternatively, install a better intake.


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: prj on April 08, 2018, 03:02:10 PM
Fuel wise it makes little difference on how to do it.

However...

Check if when actual boost = requested boost your actual load is not higher than requested load.
If your actual load is higher than requested load and your fuel is rich then do it through KFKHFM, because that will bring your load down, help with torque intervention and get your timing maps reading correctly again (vice versa if your trim is positive).

However, if it the load looks alright (more or less on target, or slightly below), then fkkvs is the way to go.


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Khendal on April 08, 2018, 04:08:40 PM
... if the car is MAFLESS ? Only through FKKVS?


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: birchbark506 on April 08, 2018, 04:47:28 PM
i run a MAF and here are some logs my timing is quite high of -9% :(


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: birchbark506 on April 08, 2018, 04:51:59 PM
gman86 on map KFKHFM would you minus on the number or add exp load 95.3 @ 2000 RPM is 1.0001 would i go down to 0.**** or 1.****


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: prj on April 08, 2018, 11:40:49 PM
... if the car is MAFLESS ? Only through FKKVS?
If your car is running alpha-n then god help you. You will never ever get it to run right in vacuum, because it's running in a limp mode designed to get you to the closest service point - there is no way to measure the intake air with the throttle not wide open, so do whatever.
If you have a TT-RS, RS3 or RS6 (no MAF from factory), then to adjust load you need to edit the VE maps, and for fueling you can use FKKVS.


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: birchbark506 on April 09, 2018, 03:06:22 AM
I added some logs to take a look at and tell me what you thing please,  I dont think I have a vaccum lake but maybe a boost leak at around 4000 you can hear, I'm going to do a leak down test today.


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: birchbark506 on April 09, 2018, 05:02:49 PM
so i added 5-7% on the map KFKHFM now i see LTFT around 4-6%  also done more logs, they look at bit better


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: bk56190 on May 18, 2018, 04:53:15 PM
Hey guys,

Does anyone know the characteristics of LOBA HP25 for 2.5TFSI ? (pistons size ? FP size ? )


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Bitshifter on June 02, 2018, 01:34:40 AM
I think it´s the same size like the autotech kit (11,5mm piston diameter).


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: bk56190 on June 03, 2018, 10:08:27 PM
Few day ago, Loba said me 12.1mm.


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: bk56190 on August 20, 2018, 12:01:45 PM
Hello,

HPFP from LOBA received and installed on my 2.5TFSI.  Loba said me piston size is 12.1mm, so i use  these values :
first :
- RQUAHDPK : 36,6mm²
- SKHDPMX : 4,5mm
- VHDP : 368cm3
=> actual pressure rail > requeted

then :
- RQUAHDPK : 36,6mm²
- SKHDPMX : 4,5mm
- VHDP : 348cm3
=> same result, actual pressure rail > requeted

Ori values are :
- RQUAHDPK : 25mm²
- SKHDPMX : 4,5mm
- VHDP : 251cm3

Do I need to reduce SKHDPMX  ?



Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: bk56190 on August 21, 2018, 12:12:41 PM
I try SKHDPMX =5 (Loba said to me), but same behaviour  ???


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: pocoloco on December 02, 2018, 05:49:59 PM
any updates in here?

i´m also actually thinking about an upgrade hpfp for an rs3, but want to buy one where measurements are clear.

i asked autotech for dimensions but got no answer, anything new to the loba hpfp?

or any other advices whitch manufacturer to use?


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: birchbark506 on December 03, 2018, 07:57:04 AM
Vis motorsport makes a good hpfp


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: pocoloco on December 03, 2018, 02:32:54 PM
Vis motorsport makes a good hpfp

hm, everything out of stock in their shop, so not really an option.


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: bk56190 on December 20, 2018, 03:02:48 AM
VIS doesn't seem to be always good quality.


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Richym on December 20, 2018, 09:57:10 AM
VIS doesn't seem to be always good quality.
I’ve fitted quite a few now with no problems


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Piar on December 22, 2018, 09:22:07 PM
Hello,

HPFP from LOBA received and installed on my 2.5TFSI.  Loba said me piston size is 12.1mm, so i use  these values :
first :
- RQUAHDPK : 36,6mm²
- SKHDPMX : 4,5mm
- VHDP : 368cm3
=> actual pressure rail > requeted

then :
- RQUAHDPK : 36,6mm²
- SKHDPMX : 4,5mm
- VHDP : 348cm3
=> same result, actual pressure rail > requeted



Do I need to reduce SKHDPMX  ?



Hi! have you solved problem?

I have also bought loba hpfp and see same problem
But if loba said that piston size is 12.1mm
math have to be

RQUAHDPK : (12.1/2)square=36.6025
- SKHDPMX : 4,5mm(it could be change just in case if you changed your camshaft sprocket(which drives hpfp))
- VHDP : 36.6025*pi*4,5=517,4568


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: bk56190 on December 23, 2018, 12:17:14 AM
Now, with more boost, more fuel (ethanol), I have put a specified rail pressure of 140bar, actual is around 130.



Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Bitshifter on January 24, 2019, 08:32:48 PM
Is there a solution for the rail pressure problem?

Just another question: does it make sence to raise pressure >130bar (with aftermarket PRV)?

HW
engine CDLF
IE HPFP upgrade kit (9.8mm piston)
HPFP upgraded with roller kit
LPFP+controller TTRS
PRV RS4
injectors stock CDL
SW
KFPRSOLHKS = 132bar
KFPRSOLHMM = 132bar
KFPRSOLHOM = 132bar
KFPRSOLKH = 132bar
KFPRSOLOFF = 132bar
KFPRSOLSCH = 132bar
KLLFPRSG = 140bar = 0,540155
KLPRMAX = 132
VHDP = 407,3
RQUAHDPK = 24
SKHDPMX=5,4

PGBDVHDO = 140bar
KFFLAF= stock from TTRS
KFNTBKS =stock from TTRS

KRKTE=0,02880









Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Tezotto01 on February 18, 2019, 08:42:11 AM
Is there a solution for the rail pressure problem?

Just another question: does it make sence to raise pressure >130bar (with aftermarket PRV)?

HW
engine CDLF
IE HPFP upgrade kit (9.8mm piston)
HPFP upgraded with roller kit
LPFP+controller TTRS
PRV RS4
injectors stock CDL
SW
KFPRSOLHKS = 132bar
KFPRSOLHMM = 132bar
KFPRSOLHOM = 132bar
KFPRSOLKH = 132bar
KFPRSOLOFF = 132bar
KFPRSOLSCH = 132bar
KLLFPRSG = 140bar = 0,540155
KLPRMAX = 132
VHDP = 407,3
RQUAHDPK = 24
SKHDPMX=5,4

PGBDVHDO = 140bar
KFFLAF= stock from TTRS
KFNTBKS =stock from TTRS

KRKTE=0,02880







Has anyone managed to solve this problem?
After updating the HPFP I have the same problem, at high rotations the pressure rises to the point of shutting off the engine due to excess pressure.





Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Bitshifter on February 19, 2019, 10:42:41 AM
Has anyone managed to solve this problem?
After updating the HPFP I have the same problem, at high rotations the pressure rises to the point of shutting off the engine due to excess pressure.


In your case it shoud be the LPFP controller!


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: vwaudiguy on February 19, 2019, 06:25:50 PM
In your case it shoud be the LPFP controller!

Why not log low pressure?


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Tezotto01 on February 20, 2019, 04:40:29 AM
In your case it shoud be the LPFP controller!

My LPFP is OEM and the pressure on the bearish line remains stable between 4.5 to 4.8Bar
When upgrading the HPFP does it need to reduce the pressure in the LPFP? This does not make sense to me ...


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Bitshifter on February 20, 2019, 06:56:37 AM
My LPFP is OEM and the pressure on the bearish line remains stable between 4.5 to 4.8Bar
When upgrading the HPFP does it need to reduce the pressure in the LPFP? This does not make sense to me ...

No! You don`t understand the fueling system. In case of the controler shut down, it is overheated. Log LP @ time of your problem an see by yourself ;) 


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Tezotto01 on February 20, 2019, 12:17:06 PM
No! You don`t understand the fueling system. In case of the controler shut down, it is overheated. Log LP @ time of your problem an see by yourself ;) 

Before I draw conclusions see the problem I posted, I reported that I am having problems with high pressure excess, at no time did I say that my LPFP to, I know very well how the supply system works but it seems to me that you do not understand it .
I do not understand why I would overheat the low controller being that I own LPFP OEM and the power of the car is still OEM.
I am injected RS4 and HPFP updated, only after calibrating this step will follow in the other calibrations.


Title: Re: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
Post by: Tezotto01 on February 22, 2019, 10:09:28 AM
Moving on to leave feedback on my problem.

I was able to solve my problem by studying the VSTMSV, AMSV and HDR functions.
Now my actual pressure follows the requested even at high rotations.