NefMoto

Vehicles => Vehicle Tech => Topic started by: aef on September 10, 2014, 11:10:28 PM



Title: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: aef on September 10, 2014, 11:10:28 PM
Hi,

there is a conversation at the moment in german board(s).
The basic idea is to use the N249 wires, a TFSI diverter valve and an adaptor like 06F145751 to have a electric diverter valve without vacuum lines.
Its faster and better and bla....okay!

one guy is running this for year(s).
the ecu / driver behind N249 is capable to support the power of the tfsi/med9 diverter falve.
i had a look into LDUVST and couldnt find any downsides.

BUT i am not that familiar with the diagrams in the FR like you are

so the question is, are there any hidden hitch or is this working on me7.5?

regards




Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: carsey on September 11, 2014, 05:55:14 AM
Whats a electronic SUV?

Please excuse the nooby question lol


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: aef on September 11, 2014, 06:33:53 AM
Sorry... SUV is german short form for Schubumluftventil which is diverter valve  :-[


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: thelastleroy on October 07, 2014, 07:57:41 PM
I would like to do this. In fact I'd be the guinea pig. What is the part number for the TFSI valve?


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: A4Rich on October 08, 2014, 08:56:59 PM
I would like to do this as well, probably should replace my stock dv anyhow.

Good FR information about the N249 can be found here (http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?6881579-Why-you-should-keep-the-N249&p=84617263&viewfull=1#post84617263).


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: A4Rich on October 17, 2014, 01:57:45 PM
What is the part number for the TFSI valve?
Piston style - 06H 145 710 D
Diaphragm Style - 06F 145 710 G
See this thread for more information on the valve, Click (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/569650-The-Ultimate-Diverter-Valve-Information-Thread).


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: thelastleroy on November 01, 2014, 06:44:13 AM
I ordered the valve off ebay...... should be here in a few weeks.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/281325968374?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

I'm now looking for a good price on the adaptor. I'll update when I find a reasonable source.


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: aef on November 02, 2014, 02:33:44 AM
Is this a fake item?

The adaptor 06F145751 is around 63€ in germany... thats crazy.

there is one in used condition in ebay germany right now..

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Seat-Leon-Cupra-R-1P-TFSI-CDL-Motor-Abschaltventil-Schubumluftventil-06H145710D-/141378262613?pt=DE_Autoteile&hash=item20eacd1655


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: thelastleroy on November 02, 2014, 06:53:26 AM
Found one for a reasonable price, and shipping. Most all of the performance parts suppliers in the US want between $25-$50 to ship a small, lightweight parcel to Canada. These companies won't be getting my business. Get real on the shipping charges, or don't offer shipping to Canada.  >:(

For a shiny, brand new adapter ;D:

http://www.uspmotorsports.com/Spulen-Diverter-Valve-Relocation-Adapter-2.0T-FSI-TSI.html

Can't wait to get this on the car. My logs are showing the effects of using manifold pressure to activate my stock diverter valve instead of ECU control via N249. I plan to use this new valve setup close to throttle valve inlet when I finally get around to installing my front mount IC. This way cooled air gets recirculated instead of hot. In the meantime, it's going in the stock TIP location. Will update with pictures when installed.


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: ddillenger on November 02, 2014, 06:57:11 AM
FWIW, if you need some stuff sent to Canadia, just LMK. Happy to accept/rebox/post it to you.


Title: Re: Re: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: thelastleroy on November 02, 2014, 07:21:54 AM
FWIW, if you need some stuff sent to Canadia, just LMK. Happy to accept/rebox/post it to you.
Once again, you're a prince.;D


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: thelastleroy on November 02, 2014, 12:12:49 PM
My next question is what current does the new diverter valve draw vs the stock n249. I'll have to measure resistance of the new valve coil when it arrives. If the new valve is very low impedance, I might rig up a relay.


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: adam- on November 02, 2014, 12:37:33 PM
A relay's gonna take days to respond compared to the ECU..


Title: Re: Re: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: thelastleroy on November 02, 2014, 03:18:41 PM
A relay's gonna take days to respond compared to the ECU..
You reckon the "ON" time is fast and short enough that an impedance mismatch won't bother the driver circuit?


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: aef on November 02, 2014, 03:19:35 PM
no need for a relay. just wire it direkt to the ecu.

there is one guy over here driving this setup for months.


Title: Re: Re: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: thelastleroy on November 02, 2014, 03:24:48 PM
no need for a relay. just wire it direkt to the ecu.

there is one guy over here driving this setup for months.
Wicked. Can't wait to get this rigged up. 8)


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: A4Rich on November 02, 2014, 07:31:42 PM
Found one for a reasonable price, and shipping. Most all of the performance parts suppliers in the US want between $25-$50 to ship a small, lightweight parcel to Canada. These companies won't be getting my business. Get real on the shipping charges, or don't offer shipping to Canada.  >:(

For a shiny, brand new adapter ;D:

http://www.uspmotorsports.com/Spulen-Diverter-Valve-Relocation-Adapter-2.0T-FSI-TSI.html

Good find on the adapter, IE sells one with a 1.5in inlet but it is more then twice the price of the Spulen one above, Click (http://www.performancebyie.com/integrated-engineering-billet-diverter-valve-housing-for-2-0t-fsi-tsi).


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: A4Rich on November 02, 2014, 07:37:58 PM
Have been looking for connectors to make an extension harness, the APM part number on the N249 female connector is AMP 928516.  I think I found the VW Part Nos. 443 906 232 (female) and 8D0 971 946 (male) but can't seem to find a place to purchase.  Any other ideas? Maybe use the original connector for the new dv and get another type of connector for the stock harness?


Title: Re:
Post by: thelastleroy on November 03, 2014, 03:48:13 AM
I'm probably going to cut the connector and wires to make a pigtail and solder up an extension wire directly.  My car will never be stock again, so I don't mind hacking up the harness a bit. I wonder if dealerships sell  "repair pigtails" for damaged connectors?


Title: Re:
Post by: MadCow on November 03, 2014, 06:43:47 AM
I'm probably going to cut the connector and wires to make a pigtail and solder up an extension wire directly.  My car will never be stock again, so I don't mind hacking up the harness a bit. I wonder if dealerships sell  "repair pigtails" for damaged connectors?

Not quite, but practically yes. They'll sell you a bare connector and a foot(ish)of wire with a pin on each end so you make the pigtail yourself. If you give them the part number of the connector they'll be able to find which pin style is the right one for the connector, you just need to know the thickness of the wire in mm since you're given a choice between 0.5 and 3mm.


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: aef on November 03, 2014, 07:25:36 AM
here is a nice german soure for most of this connector stuff

http://www.passatplus.de/umbauteile/stecker/stecker.htm

and here

http://www.passatplus.de/umbauteile/

down left, "STECKER" is connector


Title: Re:
Post by: thelastleroy on November 10, 2014, 03:37:41 PM
Got the adapter in the mail today! Really impressed with USP motorsports. Will update when valve arrives.


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: A4Rich on November 14, 2014, 08:43:21 AM
Found the connectors, see attachments, fyi the wire connectors are not the same between 1.8t N249 (Housing Part No. - Bosch 1928402448) and the 2.0t DV (Housing Part No. - Audi/VW 1J0 973 722 A).  Found the kits here (http://3waycomponents.co.uk/).

Edit: DV Connector Part Number


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: thelastleroy on November 28, 2014, 06:02:41 PM
So, minor setback with this project. I got the valve in the mail today, except instead of being a "Pierburg Germany" valve, I got a "Dierburg Oermany" valve. They copied everything and it actually fits the adapter I bought, but leaks like a sieve. The Ebay listing shows pictures of a genuine valve, so I'm pretty sure I have a case for a refund. I'll update when I have a real Pierburg in hand.


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: fukenbroken on November 30, 2014, 06:24:57 AM
So, minor setback with this project. I got the valve in the mail today, except instead of being a "Pierburg Germany" valve, I got a "Dierburg Oermany" valve. They copied everything and it actually fits the adapter I bought, but leaks like a sieve. The Ebay listing shows pictures of a genuine valve, so I'm pretty sure I have a case for a refund. I'll update when I have a real Pierburg in hand.
no way  :o
can you post a photo?


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: thelastleroy on November 30, 2014, 08:22:24 AM
Crooks


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: TijnCU on December 21, 2014, 03:39:43 AM
Whaha thats lame  ;D
Have you wired it in yet? For testing you could just run it outside of the intake system, with your oem dv direct to the manifold. This would be a cool solution to clean up some more vacuum hoses, very interested.


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: fukenbroken on December 21, 2014, 05:59:58 AM
Whaha thats lame  ;D
Have you wired it in yet? For testing you could just run it outside of the intake system, with your oem dv direct to the manifold. This would be a cool solution to clean up some more vacuum hoses, very interested.

we also ordered usp flange and try this for a few weeks
but
as i understand LDUVST - N249 doesnt open DV directly, it change the vacuum lines only when manifold has a positive pressure. im logging B_ldsua (i suppose its output for n249) and its always = 0 but B_ldsuad & B_ldsuas are 1 when i hear DV are opens.
also can someone explain what KFSDLDSUA actually do?


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: TijnCU on December 21, 2014, 06:37:11 AM
If you put a pressure source on 1 end of the electronical DV, and a whistle or horn on the other you could test when it opens if you take it for a drive  ;D ;) By my understanding of the original n249 it does indeed only work when you are not lifting the throttle.


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: thelastleroy on December 27, 2014, 02:13:43 PM
Still waiting for the GENUINE replacement to arrive.

Interested to see the logs for N249 actuation vs boost pressure on a stock setup.


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: snakey001 on December 28, 2014, 02:27:30 AM
Hi, can you measure the resistance on this valve? (dierburg oermany)


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: fukenbroken on January 06, 2015, 06:06:05 PM
hi folks
we`re installed that dv into 1.8t AUM engine w FT21 @20psi. all seems good, unfortunatly no logs for now. maybe later..

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-uBT4Q2m3UTI/VKxFCfmOshI/AAAAAAAAG6w/DcNL16mg5i0/w1358-h766-no/IMAG1231.jpg)

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-ZqDZbpicT0c/VKxTu7R7VsI/AAAAAAAAG7Y/lKjQB9qydvg/w1358-h766-no/IMAG1237.jpg)

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-P-2eV0cfOjU/VKxpEWRFTZI/AAAAAAAAG7I/VTeHvpoFazk/w1358-h766-no/IMAG1244.jpg)


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: thelastleroy on January 06, 2015, 06:35:46 PM
Amazing! How is the operation? Does it feel like the stock bypass valve when you drive? Is the boost returning enough between shifts?

My new genuine valve arrived a few days ago, broken. That's two mail-order valve problems in a row ::) New one's in the mail. Hopefully in a large, bubble-wrapped package.

Wicked to see this on the car. Can't wait to see logs! Good work!


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: fukenbroken on January 06, 2015, 07:12:54 PM
we checked dv before assembling - piston moves when b_ldsuad & b_ldsuas =1

so we simply plug it and  goes for a drive but only for 15 mins preferably at snowy roads :)
and because its a friend`s car a icant say anything about feelings.
it produces nice sound btw  :)


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: A4Rich on January 06, 2015, 09:46:03 PM
I need to get on this done...  :)

Just wanted to mention that b_ldsuas (opening of dv under cruise) is only set when pressure ratio is less than SVDLDUVS.  In many of the 1.8T files SVDLDUVS = 0s so the condition can not be set.  In the 225 TT file SVDLDUVS =1s and in FR the max is 1.3.

In the 518AK 003 Bin I believe i found the 16x1 SVDLDUVS map.
location: 27E81 factor 0.015625
axis: 27E71 factor 40.0 (RPM)


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: TijnCU on January 07, 2015, 01:31:33 AM
Cool! Especially under cruise this mod would be a big advantage, since you will never run out of vacuum to control the dv. Maybe in larger turbo applications this is not a concern (i dont know the characteristics), but I never have vacuum while cruising, always 100-200mbar above absolute so I run out of vacuum after a while  :)


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: aef on January 07, 2015, 02:51:32 AM
fukenbroken is this a genuine vag alloy adapter?

Here is a "hack" for better flow.

(https://www.hg-motorsport.de/shop/images/product_images/info_images/28115_0.jpg)


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: fukenbroken on January 07, 2015, 07:17:33 AM
its usp motorsports flange

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-ZaMh-B8zp_Q/VJmrXd3qbTI/AAAAAAAAGsI/wUXB7gp-teg/w1358-h766-no/IMAG1186.jpg)


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: TijnCU on January 21, 2015, 02:55:15 AM
I have jumped aboard too  ;D
Mostly interested in activating under cruise to improve economy!


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: funnix on January 21, 2015, 03:42:14 AM
Very cool, a video and logs would be great!  ;D


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: TijnCU on January 21, 2015, 03:29:31 PM
Some part I translated from the FR:
An approximate pressure ratio will be calculated from the division of pvdks through pu.
If the actual pressure ratio is below a certain maximum value (table SVDLDUVS), the bypass valve (n249) will be activated.
When the actual desired pressure plsol rises above the ambiant pressure (pu) + LDUVRS + HSLDSUA (for example when you press the throttle), the bypass valve will be instantaniously deactivated.

The maximum value in my mapping for svdlduvs is 3.9844. It is currently set to:
rpm 0   - 640       - 1280    - 1920   - 2560   - 3200    - 3840    - 4480   - 5120  -->
1,1094 - 1,1406   - 1,1875 - 1,2500    - 1,2969 - 1,3281 - 1,3438 - 1,3594 - 1,3750

There is another map, GWPLDU, which states the decrease in pedal % that will activate the n249, in my mapping it is set to -6.64%. I presume one could adjust this to get a more "raw" DV actuation if the smoothness of the n249 is not wished.


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: TijnCU on January 22, 2015, 05:09:25 AM
Hi, can you measure the resistance on this valve? (dierburg oermany)
I have measured my OEM  unit (06F 145 710 G) and it is 14.5ohms


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: A4Rich on January 22, 2015, 09:06:19 AM
The maximum value in my mapping for svdlduvs is 3.9844. It is currently set to:
rpm 0   - 640       - 1280    - 1920   - 2560   - 3200    - 3840    - 4480   - 5120  -->
1,1094 - 1,1406   - 1,1875 - 1,2500    - 1,2969 - 1,3281 - 1,3438 - 1,3594 - 1,3750
Are you sure about your location of SVDLDUVS?  It doesn't look correct it should be 16x1, see attached tt225 SVDLDUVS.

There is another map, GWPLDU, which states the decrease in pedal % that will activate the n249, in my mapping it is set to -6.64%. I presume one could adjust this to get a more "raw" DV actuation if the smoothness of the n249 is not wished.

Thanks for this, I think I located it on 518AK 003 @ 11921 factor of 0.3906 with a value of -1.953 (this is the same value as 06AHS file).


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: TijnCU on January 22, 2015, 09:21:25 AM
I use the 225 APX file (512kb) with a damos pack. I just cut out the values beyond 5120 rpm because they where all 1,3750, hence the arrow ->  ::) sorry to confuse anybody. I will check it to be sure, there are some errors in the damos sometimes. Maybe wrong factor.
** my RPM axis is generated from 1,2,3 with factor 640, I will reference it with the BAM file to get the right axis in there...
That looks better:


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: A4Rich on January 22, 2015, 09:39:41 AM
I use the 225 APX file (512kb) with a damos pack. I just cut out the values beyond 5120 rpm because they where all 1,3750, hence the arrow ->  ::) sorry to confuse anybody. I will check it to be sure, there are some errors in the damos sometimes. Maybe wrong factor.

No need to be sorry, thanks for the clarification I was using the 225 BAM damos. :) 


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: TijnCU on January 22, 2015, 01:12:06 PM
Because I need to build ny new turbo inlet pipe first (with a 35mm connection for the dv dump), I decided to upgrade the adapter housing  ;) need to sand it down to finish it a bit but the path of airflow has much improved.


Title: Re:
Post by: thelastleroy on January 24, 2015, 05:02:21 AM
My replacement-replacement-replacement valve has been returned to the vendor for some sort of shipping error. They actually sent me a message asking if I still need it. They are sending........a replacement.


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: fukenbroken on January 24, 2015, 11:39:51 AM
you are lucky


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: ddillenger on January 24, 2015, 11:53:47 AM
haha-that sucks.


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: TijnCU on January 24, 2015, 12:17:06 PM
I will make a log tonight, dont have the valve in yet but my original n249 is connected.
I will log b_ldsuad, b_ldsuas, pvdks, pu, wped, wdkba, fho, rl, rlmax, rlsol, nmot, mshfm.
N249 maps are stock 225hp.


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: thelastleroy on January 24, 2015, 09:10:34 PM
you are lucky

haha-that sucks.

SRSLY. Everything I've ordered online (from anywhere) in the last month has totally shit the bed. I'm going to stop shopping online for a bit and see if the luck changes.


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: TijnCU on January 25, 2015, 01:35:21 AM
2 logs, first log is some driving in the city. Second log is a swift acceleration through 3 gears. Make sure you set the filter correctly (pedal 0%, gear -1, rpm range 1, min rpm 700, throttle 1, points 1) and X axis set to TIME for a total view.
example jpg about cruise conditions.


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: TijnCU on February 03, 2015, 03:30:20 AM
Fukenbroken, how is the valve holding up? I think it can also be used to counter compressor surge during spool-up.
My tip is coming together slowly, need to add the pcv and n75 connections and weld the last bend in. Hope to finish this week.


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: fukenbroken on February 03, 2015, 10:03:44 AM
sorry my english isnt good, can you explain what you mean by counter compressor surge during spool-up ?

i assume that its a charge pipe at the bottom side of a picture? this dv doesnt work in that position because a very light spring inside of it and dv will be opened by any positive pressure with and without signal, you can check it by creating pressure with your mouth. you should rotate it or use gofastbits upgrade but its expensive..

(https://d-a.d-cd.net/afa117cs-960.jpg)
(https://c-a.d-cd.net/e26117cs-960.jpg)


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: TijnCU on February 03, 2015, 12:04:31 PM
I mean you could open the valve when the turbo is spooling when you have surging, without lifting the throttle.
The dv is connected to the inlet pipe on the photo, the charge pipe is on the thinner blue silicone. It is 25mm on the charge side and 35mm at the dump/ turbo inlet.


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: fukenbroken on February 03, 2015, 12:59:28 PM
surging when turbo spooling? its PID problem and dv is not the answer in that case :-\


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: TijnCU on February 04, 2015, 01:06:53 AM
I am just brainstorming here, but I had the idea you could (in a big turbo/small displacement engine) help "launch" the turbo up to speed by dumping a bit of pressure during spool. (Less restriction to the exhaust, create momentum in the turbine). But this is only a theory and I dont have a test platform  ::)


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: TijnCU on February 22, 2015, 02:03:31 AM
Its in and it works! Good response and nice sound, just a bit of flutter on light boost.
(http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll32/tijnvanesch/Mobile%20Uploads/4128B936-0FDE-4772-8376-5B12CAF91507_zpsisbh5kzu.jpg) (http://s284.photobucket.com/user/tijnvanesch/media/Mobile%20Uploads/4128B936-0FDE-4772-8376-5B12CAF91507_zpsisbh5kzu.jpg.html)

Placement of the dv could have been better, its a bit tight now, but it will do for now.
(http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll32/tijnvanesch/Mobile%20Uploads/63013C65-767C-40A8-A058-3BB9D7D65D8F_zpsuyvcxbfe.jpg) (http://s284.photobucket.com/user/tijnvanesch/media/Mobile%20Uploads/63013C65-767C-40A8-A058-3BB9D7D65D8F_zpsuyvcxbfe.jpg.html)

I can clearly hear it stay open on light cruise, the intake is actually louder under those conditiona then when I'm requesting say 1200mbar :P


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: fukenbroken on February 22, 2015, 03:06:59 AM
if you using tfsi coils - get these adapters VAG 077905390

here is the log we taken few days ago with e-dv with dv+ installed (its 6000 rpm and 1.45 bar = 21 psi boost)
still waiting for warmy weather to make a comparison between stock n249 / aeb-style dv connection (directrly to manifold) / e-dv / e-dv+

(https://b-i-a.d-cd.net/b846902s-960.jpg)


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: TijnCU on February 22, 2015, 12:07:14 PM
Yeah I need to make the adapters for the coils. I just pressed them in for now, they havent come out yet. I was thinking about 3d printing them, just need to draw them first ;D
I have made a small video today, thought I'd share it here too. sound quality sucks but you can kind of hear the DV in action  ::)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHQ2ZN2hyMo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHQ2ZN2hyMo)


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: fukenbroken on February 22, 2015, 12:10:44 PM
i wrote partnumber of vag original adapters, its very cheap and its what you need


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: TijnCU on February 22, 2015, 12:12:35 PM
Ok thanks I'll take a look :) need to pass by the dealer next week anyway.
** just came from the dealer, shit those adapters are 2,20€ ex vat a piece :o thanks for saving me the trouble fukenbroken! Hehe


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: MadCow on February 24, 2015, 08:26:45 PM
Ok thanks I'll take a look :) need to pass by the dealer next week anyway.
** just came from the dealer, shit those adapters are 2,20€ ex vat a piece :o thanks for saving me the trouble fukenbroken! Hehe

Yep they're great. For extra sealing you can put a small bead of RTV along the bottom edge, they're supposed to be paired with a gasket but it won't seal fully with those valve covers, and they cost more than the adaptor itself oddly enough.


Title: Re:
Post by: thelastleroy on March 01, 2015, 09:56:50 AM
Finally got the valve in the mail (authentic, undamaged) and got it installed today. Very slick operation. Going to check if the boost spike I was seeing on logs Is gone, when it's warmer outside.


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: TijnCU on March 02, 2015, 08:38:59 AM
Nice, mine is working flawless so far. Just did a trip to the black forest in Germany (1500km) and even with the bus loaded to the roof and 5 persons driving in the hills/mountains no issues at all, holding 1.4 bar boost  :)


Title: Re:
Post by: diagnosticator on April 20, 2015, 05:04:30 AM
I'm probably going to cut the connector and wires to make a pigtail and solder up an extension wire directly.  My car will never be stock again, so I don't mind hacking up the harness a bit. I wonder if dealerships sell  "repair pigtails" for damaged connectors?

The dealer has repair wires, with a terminal crimped on each end. You can get only one repair wire and cut in half, for two wires with terminals. You need to match the terminals at the dealer, needed to fit the connector housings you are using.


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: aef on September 04, 2015, 04:49:03 AM
tinju yours is mounted the opposit side.
The "long" side is for pressure.

Theses things getting popular in germany more and more.
I just ordered the parts to save my now chra from dying again  ::)


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: adam- on September 04, 2015, 04:57:12 AM
Your chra died?


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: aef on September 04, 2015, 05:30:23 AM
was a used turbo and started to make noise a little.
there is oil on the outside too

all of my wot logs have boost spike on the right side^^
which kills your axial bearing

leave your n249 in place kids. dont trust the internet 1337 tuners


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: A4Rich on September 04, 2015, 05:47:03 AM
Theses things getting popular in germany more and more.
I just ordered the parts to save my now chra from dying again  ::)
Have you consider what your going to use for SVDLDUVS? 225 APX values?


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: TijnCU on September 06, 2015, 05:16:05 AM
I am still running this setup, on standard APX values. Works great, valve is open on cruise unless requested goes above 1300mB.
Havent looked at it anymore, because it is just like stock and works excellent. No boostleaks yet, done about 10.000km on this valve now.
Its not backwards, pressure side is on the side and turbo inlet pipe is opposite to the coil. I dont think it would hold boost when you switch them around, there is no pressurized diaphragm in this system, just a spring.


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: aef on September 07, 2015, 03:48:20 AM
Here is how it looks like on a stock system.
http://www.partscats.info/seat/de/?i=cat_vag_models&brand=au&number=1109&set=1120&ein=2009&f=609&hauptgr=1234567890&hg=1&grf=014595609&bf=14595&hgug=145&ug=45&parent_id=1522663&detail_id=1522688



Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: TijnCU on September 08, 2015, 11:39:43 AM
Okay, wow  ;D now I need to redo my stainless intake haha :-X Might leave it like it is now, works without problems. Thanks guys  ??? :P


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: aef on October 05, 2015, 10:22:31 AM
Hi,

I reinstalled my N249 wiring today and did some tests.
I have a small size turbo (K04-064) from the newer TFSI Mk6R or S3 8P on my 1.8t engine.

My SUV is a GFB T9301 and its mounted on the cold side infront of the throttle
I was under the impression that a eSUV would be much faster and my boost peaks at redline could be solved.

It is faster during gearchange. There is a noticeable better boost build up. (no logs so far)
It is NOT faster at redline when the throttle closes. Maybe it is just too small for my airmass.

The boost spike is bigger and longer with the eSUV.  :'(


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: aef on November 04, 2015, 11:05:16 PM
No updates from other users?

This is a Polo WRC with same Turbo and eSUV on the Cold Side like i build it in my car.

They have all to deal with the high peak boost at redline?


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: TijnCU on November 05, 2015, 09:25:24 AM
I havent logged the variables anymore, but what I can tell from the sound is that when I get off the throttle at ~0.3-0.5 bar I get a fluttering sound, and when I go into real boost it just sounds normal (pshhh  ::)) Could be the issue that I'm running it backwards though  ;D When I put on my new turbo, I'll reverse it. Not so easy because it connects on 2 different diameters, and I welded the larger diameter on to the TIP.


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: TijnCU on December 14, 2015, 02:55:20 PM
I am still running this setup, on standard APX values. Works great, valve is open on cruise unless requested goes above 1300mB.
Well, after driving home from work today, a quick thought passed through my mind... Did I interpret the maps wrong?
In that case, I could have mapped it for working only above 1.3 PR. I pressed the throttle, let boost come on to 0.2-0.3 bar and on liftoff I get surging sounds. Then I press the throttle full and let boost build, I lift off at 1.3 bar and sounds PSSSHH SH-SH-SH-SH (or something like that, you can make your own sounds if it suits you better).
Anyway, thats about correct thinking about what I put in those maps. I disabeled N249 control UNDER 1.3PR in stead of locking it open untill 1.3 (that was my plan). This will work okay when you have a vacuum operated DV offcourse, but with this electronical DV you're screwed with this settings  ;D
Its on 1.0 now, I'll log it this week to see if it works better now.

No updates from other users?
This is a Polo WRC with same Turbo and eSUV on the Cold Side like i build it in my car.
They have all to deal with the high peak boost at redline?
I'll log my spike as well. Have you tried to reduce the hysterisis for control and pedal % ? (GWPLDU, HDLDSUA) and maybe tweak the predictor PIDLDSUA. mine are stock APX


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: aef on December 15, 2015, 12:54:57 AM
Hi,

Here is the story:

I bought a eSUV to test and log because noone did it at this time.
I was hoping that the boost peak at redline would disappear and my turbo would have a safer life.
This high boost at high rpm will kill your turbo thrust bearing :(

So i replaced my GFB T9301 diverter valve which is mounted between throttle and fmic (which is a big design flaw)
with a stock tfsi piston style diverter valve and with a GFB dv+.

surprise surprise... the old vacuum actuated valve will release the air much quicker which results in less boost spike.

first picture shows the moment where i release the pedal (red circle)
and all three diverter valves

second picture: old dv
third picture: piston style
fourth picture: gfb dv+

I believe the old dv is bigger (25mm like the stock s3/rs4) and thats the main reason.
I wonder if everyone with k04-064 upgrades on tfsi is facing this problem because they are running more boost and airmass like i did.

logs were done with 15hz, axis is NOT seconds



Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: TijnCU on December 15, 2015, 04:25:31 AM
On the other hand, the S3 has this eDV and the k04-064 combo. Could it be the issue of the piston dv? Or different programming in the software possibly.. I mean our software is calibrated for n249 and not for a eDV. Mine is diaphragm oem S3, maybe there is a flow difference between those 2 as well.

A piece of my log today, its not as high def as yours but my spike seems much less. This is offcourse a much smaller turbo I'm comparing.
But what I can see, is that it is actuated well before the throttle plate is physically closed, so any spike that comes should be the effect of flow restriction. I think my charge side of the valve is also restricted (oem 180degree bend silicone, might be a bit restrictive) but the valve itself is not smaller than my old OEM vacuum DV


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: golfputtputt on February 01, 2016, 07:29:33 AM
I did this mod a while ago when I discovered this thread and am still playing around with things. I have all the maps related to SUV control defined in my 1.8t xdf and which pertain to ldsuas and ldsuad. I still have to fully study the FR on how they actuate and how the flip/flop resets so to be honest, I should'nt be messing around with it just yet....
but I could'nt keep my mitts off it. It seems i've activated ldsuas...pretty correctly... because my SUV is open most of the time and closed only under medium-large pressure differentials (boost not pictured). SUV closes somewhere between 4-5.25 PSI (and obvs WOT). Plus ldsua seems to follow ldsuas more closely (not pictured)
Having this going is good because it appears ldsuad is def not doing what it should be.

As you can see from the screencap, ldsuad becomes true only under two out of the three pictured gear shifts (throttle plate slams closed=DV should be open, ldsuad should be true)

Once I fully understand the SUV FR I think I'll get what I need it to do but it def doesn't seem right as off right now.

FYI, took a loose look at mpg's with my elm327 over a long trip and I was getting about 28 which isnt bad. gotta deactivate ldsuas (SVD map) once i get ldsuad doing what its supposed to so I can measure mpg differences.

Edit: screencap part throttle driving

How does B_ldsua determine if it uses B_ldsuad or B_ldsuas as the profile it follows? The FR says B_ldsua can be set if either B_ldsuad OR B_ldsuas is true

Also, when determining variables over time, such as: (current boost error-previous boost error) what is the time lapse for determining these two points from the ecu's perspective? .1 second? less?


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: golfputtputt on February 07, 2016, 08:31:52 PM
 :) success

I think this thread is dead as fuck but whatever, still gonna reply. If this is all redundant and is all common knowledge that I'm repeating, my apologies.

So, I found this: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?6881579-Why-you-should-keep-the-N249&p=84617263&viewfull=1#post84617263 (http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?6881579-Why-you-should-keep-the-N249&p=84617263&viewfull=1#post84617263)

It's the original post for all my gathered information outside the FR.

I also condensed it into a pdf spread so if the pics ever die, it's on hand if anyone ever wants it. I understand how it operates and how it can be applied to an eDV (eSUV) for the most part. I'm still messing around with it so I don't quite fully know what all the parameters are capable of yet. I will find out though.

Ok, here we go:

I outfitted the TFSI DV to my 1.8t, which to my knowledge can be done also to the 2.7t (a pair of DV's and n249s -->2 eDV's) which means this mod can be for the s4 guys too. (aside from the difference in software) It just makes a hell of a lot of sense to me because you can now monitor exactly and precisely when your DV opens and closes instead of relying on a partial electric signal and a partial pneumatic signal, where you cannot record the pneumatic signal in a log.

So as most of you know, in ME7.5 B_ldsua (DV actuation) is set true by either B_ldsuas or B_ldsuad. B_ldsua WILL follow B_ldsuas over B_ldsuad if both are set true or false at separate, conflicting times. I found that out through experimentation. I used this to my advantage as B_ldsuas is much more of a safe option. It's conditions set to true the majority of times and resets the flip-flop only under certain conditions. This way, your turbo is always bypassed unless you're under WOT (under the tt225  SVDLDUVS values, all over 1). This gave me a chance to truly play around with the main operating condition- B_ldsuad whilst B_ldsuas remained my safety net.

The n249's main operation is B_ldsuad, this is considered MAIN because under most files, B_ldsuas is always false and does not come into play. It is also considered MAIN because its conditions set the DV to closed most of the time and open under certain conditions, the opposite of B_ldsuas.

On a 1.8t or 2.7t, if you are removing your n249('s) and pneumatic DV and replacing it with an eDV from a TFSI, it will not operate as it should! The eDV will not open and close at the exact times that the pneumatic DV does. This is a problem as every time you shift and the throttle plate slaps closed due to deceleration, the DV needs to relieve back pressure from the turbo. If it does not, the turbo will "surge."

B_ldsuad's threshold needs to be lowered in order for operation to mimic what the pneumatic DV does; opens under every shift.
After some experimentation (and attempted calculation which didn't really go as well as I'd hoped) I found that lowering the entire table from mostly 200 hpa to 50 hpa accross the board did the trick for the most part. As you can see from the 2nd log PNG, B_ldsuad is set to true for every shift excluding 1. I'm still messing around with it to actuate for EVERY shift completely.

B_ldsuad is actuated if ALL of it's conditions are set true. In short, pedal gradient needs to be less than GWPLDU (in deceleration, negative value) and a boost error equation is greater than KFSDLDSUA. The third condition is always true. As a general rule, GWPLDU sets the sensitivity of B_ldsuad upon deceleration. KFSDLDSUA determines when B_ldsuad is set to true. This needs to be the focus for proper DV operation (if B_ldsuas is not to be used as the primary function)

I believe that you can tune SVDLDUVS, HSLDSUA, HSSLDSUA and LDUVRS together to utilize B_ldsuas in tandem with B_ldsuad so it actuates only under consistent cruise conditions and B_ldsuad operates for the majority of around town driving. I think this way, superior gas mileage can be achieved without sacrifice to part throttle power (via allowing the turbo to build boost).

The PDF attached has been pivotal to understand how the n249 (and subsequently, the DV if an eDV is used) is controlled. My synopsis is that the n249's purpose is to support DV opening function under certain conditions and not all conditions, thus for adaptation to an eDV parameters need to be modified.

Attached files:
B_ldsuad measuring: B_ldsuad (B_ldsua subsequently) missing shifts
B_ldsuad measuring-6: B_ldsuad (B_ldsua subsequently) operating for all (99%) of shifts

Once again, if all of this is common knowledge and I'm just spouting redundancies, please, let me know and I apologize.
Hopefully this will help someone out who is attempting this mod.


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: aef on February 10, 2016, 07:19:01 AM
Hi,

great post, thank you very much.

So if i understand you correct, you only changed one of the three inputs which is the 200hpa thing map?


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: golfputtputt on February 10, 2016, 10:48:07 AM
yes, correct. only KFSDLDSUA (200 hpa table)

 I will be changing GWPLDU pedal percentage to check it's effect on B_ldsuad with KFSDLDSUA threshold changes today. I will also be logging to make sure B_ldsua is indeed following B_lsdsuad to the tee when B_ldsuas is deactivated, forgot to confirm that.

I am also getting a bit of flutter at particular times during gradual deceleration so there is still backpressure not being relieved. I'm going to start by lowering the KFSDLDSUA 10 increments until it dissapears. GWP may help it go away too. I'll isolate the variables with scientific method to make sure I don't mix up results.

edit: I lied, thought about it, viewed logs, listened to the car. Duration of B_ldsuad needs to widen also


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: golfputtputt on February 10, 2016, 05:45:28 PM
ok, more success.

I lowered KFSDLDSUA 10 hpa more and that seemed to be the magic number for catching all the shifts. (40 hpa accross table)
Another thing that is of note is the duration that B_ldsuad is set to true which is controlled by the reset condition of the flip-flop.

This is what people interested in performance should be concerned about as this controls how quickly the DV closes before the shift into the next gear, after boost fully ramps down. Once boost accumulation is desired again, you want that DV closed as quickly as possible. I found that I had a faint sound of fluttering at the tail end of a shift: backpressure.

So I raised the reset time: THLDUVD by 1/2 a second (2 seconds OEM value). This holds B_ldsuad true for longer. If you want a quicker DV function, perhaps 2.25 s is for you, perhaps leave it at 2 s, depends on what you're willing to compromise.

THLDUVD is not complex nor is it pressure differential based, so, if you have higher than stock boost levels, this may need to be raised. If you are running a shorter intake tract, this may have to be raised. If you are running a different turbo than K03/K04, this will probably have to be raised. If you're running a ball or needle bearing small turbo, something that spools up and down very very quickly, this may have to be lowered....? It depends, take a look at B_ldsuad and its relation to pressure decrease, B_ldsuad should turn false when boost is flat. PNG example: THLDUVD not raised but you can see boost is still ramping down when DV closes.

update edit: I zero'ed KFS as I was still missing shifts. I widened my log route and threw in hills and other scenarios to make sure all shifts were covered. Things seem alright now but I don't like that KFS is zero'ed. At a later date, I'm going to play with the multiplier and hopefully repopulate KFS.


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: golfputtputt on August 08, 2016, 09:14:05 AM
For anyone trying this. There was a really easy error with the hardware that i made.
The oem mk4 pneumatic diverter valve has the piston/diaphram facing the suction side of the turbo. This is how it was designed.
The oem mk5/6/7 solenoid diverter valve has the piston facing the pressure side of the turbo. This is how it was designed.

The inlet/oulet sides need to be flipped. It will work without flipping it, unless you try and pair it with Go Fast Bits DV+, the DV+ will not work if you don't flip it. The general check for the flip is: the solenoid body should be facing sideways, piston face facing the pressure pipe.


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: Cookiez on November 08, 2016, 05:15:17 AM
Has anyone been running this over a period of time?

Would love to ditch my DV and go eDV


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: Colt45 on November 25, 2016, 10:20:33 AM
Are there any logs of running the eDV without modified firmware?

golfputtputt says it will open too slow, but that doesn't really make sense to me. I mean the whole point of existing pneumatic+N249 system is to open the DV as soon as throttle is starting to release (and not have to wait for vacuum to build in manifold), right? If not then what is the point of the N249?!

thanks for any comments. I was thinking I would install eDV in my as of yet stock 1.8T


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: Colt45 on December 03, 2016, 12:36:18 PM
bump ):))


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: prj on December 05, 2016, 01:04:11 AM
So i replaced my GFB T9301 diverter valve which is mounted between throttle and fmic (which is a big design flaw)
with a stock tfsi piston style diverter valve and with a GFB dv+.

surprise surprise... the old vacuum actuated valve will release the air much quicker which results in less boost spike.

Just to bring some clarity to this thread. The conclusion is flawed, as is the testing method.
If your DV was post-cooler and then you moved it to pre-cooler of course on the pre-throttle sensor you will see higher pressure, but it makes absolutely no difference.
This is because it is not where you should be measuring it in the first place.

The important place where to measure is between turbo and intercooler.


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: Cookiez on January 24, 2017, 04:43:18 AM
so its been a bit of back and forth, could someone elaborate what exactly needs to be changed and whats concluded to be the correct direction of install in regards to the valve.

Would love to ditch the vacuum reservoir and solenoid, but a delete isnt an option.


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: golfputtputt on May 23, 2017, 06:57:52 AM
Ok, small update. Thought this thread was archived, not moved here...

Attached is an image of where my eDV is located. In stock location where it would be in OEM format. After turbo, before cooler. I am currently running it VTA with GFB DV+ stack thingy which is working perfectly under 99% of driving conditions. Attached also is the disassembled document of the DV function block in the FR as posted before.

Keep in mind, that the GFB DV+ works to vent pressure when there is some, it's function requires there to be, so if a signal to the eDV solenoid says 'turn on' but there is no pressure in the charge pipe, the DV will not open and vent. If you are not using the GFB DV+ it most likely won't matter because the tuning here is pretty sound. Signal commands that it opens when it should and does not fail to open when there is pressure needing to be vented. I have not found much if any audible compressor surge using an oem K03.

I have changed two maps, one of which needs to be tweaked. THLDUVD and KFSDLDSUA. I've messed with GWPLDU alot with no drastic change in operating function which is good. USUALLY, when driving, if you lift off throttle until closed (as if to shift) you want the DV open. Under all other driving conditions, you would want it closed, to build pressure (ignoring the special function of B_ldsuas which can be addressed later as a nicety, but i won't be doing it because im VTA with Maf upstream).

Issue that I'm having (I will post a log later) is with PT tuning. If you commence accelerating at WOT, then lift off throttle hard and catch it at half throttle, the turbo will still be producing boost (about 4.5ish psi on oem k03 or K04) but throttle lift will trigger B_ldsuad to become true and DV will open, blasting 5 psi either into atmo. (my setup) or bypass it back into turbo mouth. This will cause a soft code as I have intermittently.

I theorize that you can use the boost error based variable function of B_ldsuad to keep DV closed under these hard, part throttle lift conditions but I'm  still attempting to look for patterns and smooth out all the units of measurement in all these things (log is in mbar, map is in hpa, boost gauge and my brain works in psi). I'm trying to search through my log to calculate the: delta boost error*PIDLDSUA+current boost error so I can compare it to the oem KFSDLDSUA map. If I see a pattern, I may be able to tune it to keep the DV closed when I want it to.

But, I rarely see this condition occur and when it does, it's usually under race conditions, track day, autox etc. I would like the code gone though....
TL;DR: the eDV will work very well with VERY minimal tuning changes to n249 signal protocol (THLDUVD and KFSDLDSUA) but there is one anomaly that I have yet to figure out. It's nice not having all that pneumatic based STUFF clogging up your engine function.


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: golfputtputt on June 04, 2017, 07:03:24 PM
sorry for delay. Here is the log that displays the anomaly. At the very end, you can see the turbo is making 5 psi still after the harsh drop and catch in accel ped percentage. During this time, because of the drop, B_Ldsua turns on and opens the DV and vents.

My desire is, for B_ldsua to continue to open the DV when I lift off throttle to part throttle but not keep it open. Like a quick burst to keep the turbo safe, just enough so I don't loose spool.


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: Cookiez on August 09, 2017, 12:57:02 AM
I'm having trouble locating the functions i need to alter, anyone know the locations for a 32HN 0001 ecu?


Title: Re: 1.8t: electronic SUV via N249 output
Post by: golfputtputt on February 06, 2018, 09:20:42 AM
Update to this:

I took apart my engine, re-bored to 1.9L and installed a GT2860RS turbo.

Now the eDV no longer works properly. I have not changed any variables in the software relating to the eDV when I reinstalled the motor. I'll post some logs a little later but everything that I'm seeing within points to the eDV firing at the proper time and when I ask it to (essentially only on pedal lift) but I'm still getting poor results with DTCs of P1297 and P1200.

At first I thought perhaps the eDV is opening when it should not (due to a pressure differential map in B_LDSUA turning B_LDSUAD to true) but B_LDSUA seems to be false whenever boost is building. (as it should)

I did a cabin test to see if the valve is indeed opening, it is. With the valve unplugged i see a power line voltage of 8v and a firing voltage of 14 (0v and 14v when valve is plugged in) so I assume this is just a floating, unloaded voltage. I need to perform further confirmations to ensure that I did not fry my ECU n249 circuit. Figured I'd plug in my spare ECU and see if it operates properly.

With the eDV in, it bucks and ultimately falls into a 5% WGDC limited limp mode.

I've tried every revision eDV vw makes including GFB DV+. All of which result in this state. Installing the pneumatic DV solves all these issues so that definitely confirms the eDV is to blame.
I will have to look into this further at another time. The fact it used to work is inspiring, just gotta get it back to that state.

Oh, also I have reverted to using this in recirculation mode.