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Author Topic: Good article on E85 fuel and tuning from Injector Dynamics  (Read 6160 times)
NOTORIOUS VR
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« on: February 10, 2012, 01:30:15 PM »

http://www.injectordynamics.com/AlcoholArticle.html
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SCHNELL ENGINEERING BLOG ·  STANDALONE ECUS · TUNING · DYNO · WIRING · PARTS · VEMS
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robin
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« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2012, 09:56:32 AM »

Great read!
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drpancho
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« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2020, 09:57:53 AM »

I think the url changed:
http://injectordynamics.com/articles/e85/
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larppaxyz
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« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2020, 03:53:12 AM »

That article is more confusing than good for someone who looks into using E85 first time.

It may be valid for some old pushrod single port injection car from 80's, but doesn't really bring up any valid points for modern (European) cars.

For example, Bosch injectors are compatible with 100% ethanol and have been for atleast 10 years. Article then mentions lambda and how different blends affect it. I don't think this is such a big deal, now that we have O2 sensors.

From top of my head, i would suggest HP Academy Youtube videos about using and tuning ethanol blends.



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« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2020, 11:51:51 PM »

Article then mentions lambda and how different blends affect it. I don't think this is such a big deal, now that we have O2 sensors.



This part is 100% correct.
It is a mayor deal.
If you are tuned for ie E70. And happend to get E85 or more, watch what happens to your AFRs n compensations. Not even going into coldstarts n wormup.
A highly tuned car will blow the engine on high gear pull due to leaning out and very advanced timing Ethanol car needs.
Get a Ethanol Content sensor and do studies. You’ll see.
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larppaxyz
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« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2020, 07:33:51 AM »


This part is 100% correct.
It is a mayor deal.
If you are tuned for ie E70. And happend to get E85 or more, watch what happens to your AFRs n compensations. Not even going into coldstarts n wormup.
A highly tuned car will blow the engine on high gear pull due to leaning out and very advanced timing Ethanol car needs.
Get a Ethanol Content sensor and do studies. You’ll see.

Yes and no, like i said, now that we have ECU's and sensors that easily handle small variations in fuel quality it's not such a big deal unless you for some reason tune everything to specific blend and there are no adjustments or adapations at all.

For most of us, ECU would adjust LTFT to match what ever blend you have in your tank. E85 to E70... would trim out just fine. Going from E0 to E85 would not work, but generally, there is quite a wide margin.








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« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2020, 09:41:17 AM »

Its not about trims.
Its about fueling at WOT, lambdas has no function there.
Its enough to go from E75 - E85 even less to lean out dangerously.
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woj
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« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2020, 11:01:27 AM »

Its not about trims.
Its about fueling at WOT, lambdas has no function there.
Its enough to go from E75 - E85 even less to lean out dangerously.


Do you know what LTFT is and how it works?

There are actually hardcore folks that tune cars for mid E, that is E45 and let trims deal with the variations down to E5 and up to E85 (for injection that is, advance is a different story). And there is something based soft flex fuel that works on a similar principle. (Not that I agree with or would use such a solution, the theory behind it is more or less acceptable though).

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« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2020, 03:23:19 AM »

Do you know what LTFT is and how it works?



Are you serious asking this question?

LTFTs will not effect WOT fueling.
Variations in low and midrange fueling will be managed by lambda corrections. Correct. But it will throw off precision in coldstarts and warmup. This will be a problem in cold climate countries, not necceerily in warm once. However,  that is not what i am talking about.
Topend WOT fueling will not be corrected by LTFTs
If you are tuned for maxpower on E70 and you get E85 intank - you will lean out. This is based on 8 years driving E85 winter as summer. And I do have Innovate Ethanol Content sensor in my eyesight. Not tuned into Me7, but for these obvious reasons.
I actually dont know anyone that has inplamanted full flexfuel code into Me7. Maybe you do. This would solve this problem ofc.
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woj
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« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2020, 06:01:00 AM »

Are you serious asking this question?

Clearly Wink

LTFTs will not effect WOT fueling.

Yes it will, that's the whole point of LTFT. Page 965 of the ME7.1 Audi R4 FR, tell me where is any "WOT" switch that makes the fra_w or rka_w not applied to arrive at rk_w???

I actually dont know anyone that has inplamanted full flexfuel code into Me7. Maybe you do. This would solve this problem ofc.

Yes I have, but that's beside the point.
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nyet
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« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2020, 12:33:13 PM »

Since ME7.1 is not wideband, it (at least) is much more challenging.
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ME7.1 tuning guide
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« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2020, 08:21:28 AM »



Theory is one thing.
Reality another.
You need to test this on a narrowband Me7.1 car.
I have - for a long time and in reallife conditions.
To end this here, i would really like to point out.
Know your ethanol content.
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woj
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« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2020, 01:01:40 AM »

Theory is one thing.
Reality another.
You need to test this on a narrowband Me7.1 car.
I have - for a long time and in reallife conditions.
To end this here, i would really like to point out.
Know your ethanol content.

I do not need to test anything on ME7.1 and I know what the reality is, I have driven long enough with my flex setup and watched my gauges and fuel corrections for long enough  Wink on a narrowband ME ECU.

You fuel up the car with the slightly different Ethanol content (enough you go to Germany to get E10 instead of E5), you let it drive at mid load for some minutes, your LTFA will adjust and you are all set. If you fuel it up and floor it straight from the gas station, then sure, LTFT won't help you.

You say you lean out going from E75 to E85. For the sake of argument let's assume you tuned for AFR 11.5 at WOT, then it "leans" out to 12.0 AFR. Your LTFT needs to be at 1.03-1.04 to sort this out, I get such trims on a stock car just from the stock tune imperfections, quality of fuel, weather, or blood sugar levels of my neighbor. I can believe there are setups pushed to the edge where dropping this 0.5 AFR is dangerous, it does make a difference, but then if it is  on the edge, then something else will blow your engine sooner or later. If your leaning out is substantially higher for this assumed scenario, then there is something else wrong, not the ethanol content Wink If your LTFT does not adjust after mid load driving, then there is something else wrong, like your trims not working at all.
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