karel5000
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« on: December 19, 2012, 11:46:55 AM »
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Hi,
i have a question. Does the M 2.3 (Audi 200 20V) continue with the interpolation in the ignition and fuel maps if the MAF is higher than the MAF used in the maps during the full load? Eventuell how exactly?
I have done some modifications on my engine and found, that the MAF in the maps is on its maximum value during already 1.2 bar overboost now. I drive normally 1.7 bar. I am far away behind the MAF used in the maps. What should i do?
For a few years i had the similar problem. I measured the duty-cycle of the injectors. The last highest value in the fuel map was 86% but i measured 100% during the full load. It seems to continue in the interpolation...
Thanks!
Karel5000
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prj
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« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2012, 02:53:14 PM »
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Of course not.
It works exactly like every other motronic works, it just reads from the last cell.
There is also no "MAF" in the maps, there is only load. And load has a bunch of limiters imposed on it.
The "fuel" map as you call it, is an enrichment map or target lambda map. Not an absolute amount of fuel to put into the engine, so of course if load does not max out, then just the last enrichment value is used.
That does not mean the car has to go lean right away.
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prj
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« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2012, 02:58:52 PM »
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What you should do:
1. You need proper data logging to see what is going on in the ECU, what values are what.
2. You must rescale the axes.
3. You must lift the soft load limiter.
4. If you have proper data logging you can see if the actual MAF itself maxes out. If it does, time to fit a bigger MAF and re-calibrate the MAF maps.
The latter can again only be done with proper data logging of the ECU.
And this you are going to have to write in ASM in the ECU... which is what I have done.
To make decent power with this ECU it is not enough anymore to modify 6 maps. A lot of calibration work is required, which is impossible to get running right if you do not have factory description or have not disassembled the ECU routines and understood how it does things. Also impossible to tune right without data logging...
Where are you from? Maybe I can do this for you...
If not, get a standalone ECU and upgrade to a multi coil setup as well. There is no point wasting your time if all you want to do is your own one car.
I spent three years digging in this dinosaur... but I have tuned 100+ of these as well, so it was worth it.
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« Last Edit: December 19, 2012, 03:01:43 PM by prj »
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karel5000
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« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2012, 11:31:41 AM »
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Hi Prj,
thanx for Your answer und tips!
I am using Ostrich to see, what the engine does. I am searching for some specifications of Motronic 2.3 for a long time to know, what which map does. I do not know, how the old Motronics work. I try to learn it with Ostrich. I know only, how some new systems work and to try to use this theory for Motronic 2.3. You are right, the new systems does not use the Duty-Cycle values in the applikation software, only lambda values controlled throuh the lambda regulator. I thought, that Motronic 2.3 is not so intelligent...
By the Motronic 2.3 is the lambda regulator off during the part and full load. So there must be some fuel map anyway, which specify the amout of fuel (MFF) depending on the mass of air during the part and full load, need't? Please, write me, how it works.
This load is not MAF? What it is, than? Most maps in the newer ignition systems are MAF dependent. MAF is being computed from MAP or alfa for it...
How scaled are the axis in this lambda map?
What does it mean "lift the soft load limiter"? Who and for what it is?
Can You tell me, please, how the MAF maps look like?
Which 6 maps must i modify? Can You describe them, please?
I'd like to meet You. But i live in germany. Where are You from?
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IamwhoIam
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« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2012, 11:48:18 AM »
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Hi Prj,
thanx for Your answer und tips!
I am using Ostrich to see, what the engine does. I am searching for some specifications of Motronic 2.3 for a long time to know, what which map does. I do not know, how the old Motronics work. I try to learn it with Ostrich. I know only, how some new systems work and to try to use this theory for Motronic 2.3. You are right, the new systems does not use the Duty-Cycle values in the applikation software, only lambda values controlled throuh the lambda regulator. I thought, that Motronic 2.3 is not so intelligent...
By the Motronic 2.3 is the lambda regulator off during the part and full load. So there must be some fuel map anyway, which specify the amout of fuel (MFF) depending on the mass of air during the part and full load, need't? Please, write me, how it works.
This load is not MAF? What it is, than? Most maps in the newer ignition systems are MAF dependent. MAF is being computed from MAP or alfa for it...
How scaled are the axis in this lambda map?
What does it mean "lift the soft load limiter"? Who and for what it is?
Can You tell me, please, how the MAF maps look like?
Which 6 maps must i modify? Can You describe them, please?
I'd like to meet You. But i live in germany. Where are You from?
how? what? where? which? I see a pattern prj is going to love here. |
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I have no logs because I have a boost gauge (makes things easier)
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prj
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« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2012, 12:33:54 PM »
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By the Motronic 2.3 is the lambda regulator off during the part and full load. So there must be some fuel map anyway, which specify the amout of fuel (MFF) depending on the mass of air during the part and full load, need't? Please, write me, how it works. Auch in M2.3 ist das Kraftstoffkennfeld ein Lambda sollwert... Du stellst zu viele Fragen, ich werde nicht alle meine Kenntnisse einfach weg geben, sorry. Wenn du das Steuergerät verstehen willst, musst du halt im Assembler schauen wie es funktioniert. In der BoschDME Gruppe ist eine sehr hilfreiche Nachricht, in der jemand eine menge der basis-Subroutinen identifiziert und aufgeklärt hat. Auch die Subroutine die auf Kennfelder zu greift. Es gibt nur zwei davon, eine mit Interpolation und die andere ohne. Wenn du durch die ROM gehst und alle Kennfeldzugriffe findest, dann wird die Motronic auch mehr sinn machen. Nur mit einem ROM-Emulator kannst du kein 400+ PS Projekt mit diesem Steuergerät abstimmen, der auch gut fahrbar ist. Nach Deutschland komme ich auch leider sehr selten. |
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B234R
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« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2012, 12:40:29 PM »
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Auch in M2.3 ist das Kraftstoffkennfeld ein Lambda sollwert...
Du stellst zu viele Fragen, ich werde nicht alle meine Kenntnisse einfach weg geben, sorry.
Wenn du das Steuergerät verstehen willst, musst du halt im Assembler schauen wie es funktioniert.
In der BoschDME Gruppe ist eine sehr hilfreiche Nachricht, in der jemand eine menge der basis-Subroutinen identifiziert und aufgeklärt hat.
Auch die Subroutine die auf Kennfelder zu greift. Es gibt nur zwei davon, eine mit Interpolation und die andere ohne.
Wenn du durch die ROM gehst und alle Kennfeldzugriffe findest, dann wird die Motronic auch mehr sinn machen.
Nur mit einem ROM-Emulator kannst du kein 400+ PS Projekt mit diesem Steuergerät abstimmen, der auch gut fahrbar ist.
Nach Deutschland komme ich auch leider sehr selten.
Dafür ist Dein Deutsch aber sehr gut ;-) Sorry, just said that his German is very good for someone who visits Germany very seldomly. |
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prj
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« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2012, 03:00:03 PM »
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Dafür ist Dein Deutsch aber sehr gut ;-)
Sorry, just said that his German is very good for someone who visits Germany very seldomly. You have to have some German knowledge if you want to be serious about German cars  But yes, I have been in Germany three times in my entire life, so not a very frequent visitor. |
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karel5000
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« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2012, 04:05:48 PM »
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Thanks. Tell me please one Info. How is it with the Ignition map? This is also "load" dependent. In the point of the highest load enters the ECU already during 1.2bar (relativ) overboost. The turbo-chip is made for 1.8bar in this point. Does it meen, that the ignition angle stays constant in the range from 1.2-1.8 degrees? The tuning of my hardware can not do 0.6bar difference.
I have driven also another software for a bigger turbo. I noticed, that the same thing happens by 1.2bar too. How is it possible? Can we drive such a software without a problem?
Vielen Dank!
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prj
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« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2012, 04:55:51 PM »
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Yes the ignition angle will be the same 1.2 to 1.8.
Which is crap, this is not the way to tune this ECU, it can be done "right".
But of course "right" is difficult to do. I have seen VERY few of these tuned right.
But anyway, at 1.8 bar the MAF will be maxed out and you need to change MAF for good results...
And "how is it possible" - everything is possible, does not mean it's tuned well.
Do you think it is a good idea to have the same ignition advance from 1.2 bar to 1.8 bar? Of course it is not a good idea...
Most "tuners" don't actually know very much, as you will discover.
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karel5000
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« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2012, 05:37:55 PM »
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Thanks Prj!
Many greetings,
Karel5000
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