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Author Topic: Throttle plate drop  (Read 4652 times)
golfputtputt
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« on: August 14, 2021, 07:38:52 PM »

I've been trying to figure out whats causing this problem for quite some time now without success. looking at the logs recorded, you can see accel pedal is steady or varies little but the throttle plate will suddenly close. This always happens between 1500-3000 rpm and only once per gear, as in, as long as I stay in that gear, it will only happen once. When I shift, it happens again, only once.

It makes the car very difficult to drive.
Also, as you can see, the throttle plate in log 3, the accel pedal % stays under 50% but throttle plate angle opens up to 90% which I do not want to happen.
car: 2002 vw mk4 1.8t AWP ME7.5 HS
SW mods:
MLHFM scaled for 2.95" MAF tube
KFKHFM recalculated for derivative errors in airflow

A bunch of changes for emission equipment, no O2 changes.
stock injectors
No air leaks etc. hardware is good.
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golfputtputt
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« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2021, 08:01:52 AM »

ok, been studying, read the wiki, read the threads on base boost. Moved some maps around and got some mild results but I am still not changing cells with intention based on 2 or more variable feedback.
LDRPLS:

OEM throttle body so KFWDKMSN, KFMSNWDK stock.
Garrett GT2860RS so LDRPLS needs tuning.
One hardware issue I need to iron out: I welded a Tial MVS-A WG flange to my turbine and the hole I cut in the turbine is too small. I'll need to dremel out the hole to eliminate boost creep which is a bit dramatic.
These maps are based on spring "cracking pressure" and are less concerned or sensitive to what occurs after 0% WGDC correct or am I wrong about that?

WG spring is 5 psi tial which should be the same pressure as 1.8T AWP K03s.

On to WDKUGDN, KFVPDKSD, KFVPDKSE:

Increased WDKUGDN to match msdk_w to mshfm_w which has gotten better. I need to fine tune it a bit more in the low RPM zones but aside from just tweaking until they match, I'm not sure if there is a formula I can use to propagate the cells with. also, it seems a bit lumpy, not sure if smoothing is appropriate.

KFVPDKSD/E I based on the base boost curve from pvdks but PRJ says:

Quote
All that is needed is measure base boost and fill the tables correctly, to make sure that the throttle is used for filling control where plsol < base boost and the N75 used with the throttle slammed open where plsol > base boost.

but on WOT plsol is always above pvdks (so is vpssplg_w). Maybe I need to log part throttle and tune based on that?
compared 032HS to 551R, 551M, 018H and a few others which are all very different.

I converted base boost to pressure ratio (PSI+14.69)/14.69=PR then limited where I put .956 KFVPDKSD/E based on where the PR coincides with RPM and propagated KFVPDKSD/E like that. I'm unsure if that's the appropriate way to do it or if I'm basing it on the right variables of if there is also a formula you can use to fill the cells.

Also, best practices: blend from .956->1.015 (EX: .956, .966, .984, 1.015)?
or just .956, 1.015 ?





« Last Edit: August 23, 2021, 08:14:52 AM by golfputtputt » Logged
aef
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« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2021, 12:54:37 AM »

this is all related to your actual boost being far away from desired boost

http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=12352.0

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golfputtputt
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« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2021, 06:50:21 AM »

Huh. Ok.

I started down the path for LDRPID but got distracted with LDRPLS which helped a lot.
I’ll return to LDRPID.
Thank you!
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prj
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« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2021, 08:18:56 AM »

Actually the boost has absolutely nothing to do with keeping the throttle open or closed on ME7.
Read about "Überweg" and how that works.

Also I recommend ditching LDRPLS by changing CWPLGU, or if your ECU does not have CWPLGU then patching it.
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golfputtputt
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« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2021, 09:47:55 AM »

Actually the boost has absolutely nothing to do with keeping the throttle open or closed on ME7.
Read about "Überweg" and how that works.

Also I recommend ditching LDRPLS by changing CWPLGU, or if your ECU does not have CWPLGU then patching it.


Something tells me i’m not looking for the german philosopher “ Friedrich Ueberweg”…..
Any sources on where to begin reading?

If LDRPLS is removed, how does ME7.5 determine when to begin tapering in WGDC vs throttle for boost control? And it doesn't look like 032HS has CWPLGU, only bin I've found is in Audi RS6 4.2TT BCY 450HP 4D1907558 0261207857 367724 where its value is 1. Also, I have no clue where to start for patching that in.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2021, 09:52:42 AM by golfputtputt » Logged
Blazius
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« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2021, 11:32:28 AM »


Something tells me i’m not looking for the german philosopher “ Friedrich Ueberweg”…..
Any sources on where to begin reading?

If LDRPLS is removed, how does ME7.5 determine when to begin tapering in WGDC vs throttle for boost control? And it doesn't look like 032HS has CWPLGU, only bin I've found is in Audi RS6 4.2TT BCY 450HP 4D1907558 0261207857 367724 where its value is 1. Also, I have no clue where to start for patching that in.


Almost every 1.8T bin has CWPLGU from what ive seen. In 032HS it is at 819A4B.

The difference is only in CWPLGU:
CWPLGU = 0
for example used in RS4 and rarely in 1.8T Ecus (TT Quattro Sport): plgrus_w = Output of KFPLGU/B
vpssplg = pssol_w/plgrus_w. vpssplg is the axis for KFPVDKSE/D, so cracking pressure is ratio = 1

CWPLGU = 1
most 1.8T use this config: plgrus_w = pu_w
vpssplg = pssol/plgrus = pssol_w/pu_w. vpssplg is the axis for KFPVDKSE/D, so ambient pressure is ratio = 1


http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=9221.0

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golfputtputt
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« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2021, 07:25:01 PM »

Almost every 1.8T bin has CWPLGU from what ive seen. In 032HS it is at 819A4B.

The difference is only in CWPLGU:
CWPLGU = 0
for example used in RS4 and rarely in 1.8T Ecus (TT Quattro Sport): plgrus_w = Output of KFPLGU/B
vpssplg = pssol_w/plgrus_w. vpssplg is the axis for KFPVDKSE/D, so cracking pressure is ratio = 1

CWPLGU = 1
most 1.8T use this config: plgrus_w = pu_w
vpssplg = pssol/plgrus = pssol_w/pu_w. vpssplg is the axis for KFPVDKSE/D, so ambient pressure is ratio = 1


http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=9221.0





been studying this. Logged all of those variables. Range for Vpssplg is .2 to 1.85 with CWPLGU set to zero from one (using address 0x19A4B, 819A4B is outside of the binary range unless I'm missing something in my ignorance)

Actually the boost has absolutely nothing to do with keeping the throttle open or closed on ME7.
Read about "Überweg" and how that works.

Also I recommend ditching LDRPLS by changing CWPLGU, or if your ECU does not have CWPLGU then patching it.

I'm confused how this removes LDRPLS or negates it if the only changes CWPLGU enacts on it is the range of the vpssplg axis.
Also, setting CWPLGU to zero didn't get rid of the strange throttle behavior as seen in this log primarily in 2nd-3rd gear.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2021, 07:30:06 PM by golfputtputt » Logged
prj
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« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2021, 05:04:23 AM »

I'm confused how this removes LDRPLS or negates it if the only changes CWPLGU enacts on it is the range of the vpssplg axis.
Also, setting CWPLGU to zero didn't get rid of the strange throttle behavior as seen in this log primarily in 2nd-3rd gear.

CWPLGU must be set to 1, not 0.
I misworded it, it does not get rid of LDRPLS, it gets rid of BGPLGU going into the calculation. But if it was already set to 1 then not relevant here.

Throttle will shut if target pressure ratio is less than specified in LDRPLS. It will be WOT above that pressure ratio unless miist > milsol in which case it will use throttle path intervention.
So your problem is either LDRPLS or KFMIRL/KFMIOP not being an inverse or having a massive overboost. In all other cases the throttle stays flat wide open.
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fknbrkn
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mk4 1.8T AUM


« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2022, 08:08:03 AM »

Maybe its stupid but
I have an issue with DSG big turbo setup with me7 closing throttle to wdkug when shifting
DSG drops migs_w (fast path) to reduce torque when shifting (miges_w slow path stays at 100% its ok) negative ignition comes to reduce torque and all ok
Except 1 thing: as a result of torque reducing there is a plsol reduces too which leading to overshoot and 'uberweg'something Smiley - throttle drops to wdkugdn, wgdc drops etc not what you expect at wot shifting

Is there any solution for that? Or some patch is needed here
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BlackT
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« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2022, 08:23:09 AM »

I have same on 6hp19
At WOT I have TB closing after trans already engedged next gear. 

I try to play with IRL/IOP in that region to reduce problem= without succses
Try to open DV at shift, but is not that fast
And some other stuffs

Only solution I found so far to put plsol to max,turn off undreboost diagnose, and reduce boost with fixed WGDC. Now I don't have any protection from overboost but that TB closing made me crazy.

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bamofo
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« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2022, 01:36:35 PM »

I have same on 6hp19
At WOT I have TB closing after trans already engedged next gear. 

I try to play with IRL/IOP in that region to reduce problem= without succses
Try to open DV at shift, but is not that fast
And some other stuffs

Only solution I found so far to put plsol to max,turn off undreboost diagnose, and reduce boost with fixed WGDC. Now I don't have any protection from overboost but that TB closing made me crazy.


Gonna need some logs to figure it out.

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fknbrkn
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mk4 1.8T AUM


« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2022, 06:23:39 AM »

if pspvds ( ps_w / psvdkds_w)  > PSPVDKUG  DK goes to WDKUG
Setting to 0.8 and DK wont closes anymore at shifts.  WDKSHYS = 0.1
But another car with these values has DK is always operating at the uberweg Smiley Both cars 1.8t running alpha-n (hi nye:) ) for temporary reasons with slightly different ps_w calibration
Im absolutely had no idea what im doing  Roll Eyes halp!
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