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Author Topic: Which direction to take?: Coding my 4.2 ART for manual  (Read 35344 times)
4loops
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« on: March 16, 2016, 10:04:09 AM »

Hi Folks,

I've been looking around quite a bit at different threads, and trying to figure out how to read maps and xdf definition files, but I'm starting to get lost in my direction.
First, my goal, and then my thoughts on an approach:

My Goal: I'm swapping in an ART 40V 4.2 V8 into my 1999.5 B5, and will need to code for a manual trans to keep idle speed normal.  I also want to get my ECM to recognize the clutch switch I just installed, too.

The approach:
I thought I could go one of two ways: I thought I could first try to recode the current ME7.1 ECU from the ART engine, 4D0907558S module, to have a lower idle speed.  But then it looks like I would have to start changing maps.  I don't know why maps would be different from manual to automatic, other than an idle speed.  But from some research it looks like that is recommended.  It also seems that this 558S ECU was never intended to be coupled with a manual transmissiion.

So the second way, which I read, appears to be the direction I will have to take, would be to use a 4D0907560AE ME7.1.1 ECM from a 2001 C5 and then use a Euro S6 manual file (of which I don't know where to find yet, will need some help locating), and possibly overwrite some of the maps from my ART 558S module into this 560AE ECU.  
This really seems the way to go, but I'm at a loss of where to start.  From what I'm reading, I must have the .xdf file from the exact ECM I'm using, so this would mean I would need a 560AE .xdf file, but then what bin file should I use?  Also, I did find some talk of a 01 s6 manual file, but it was a 559E.xdf.  I don't think this file will work with my 560AE ECU, right? It looks like I will have to flash the S6 immo defeat 95040 file once I figure this out and flash my calibration file.  I'm not sure where to locate this file either.  I know if I use the ME7.1.1 ECU, I'll have to swich the injector 2 pin to a different (I don't remember which one I read right now) pin on the ECU so the injector doesn't stick on and cause a hydrolock situation.  I think this is the only hardwiring thing that will have to change other than making sure my ART harness has pins for the accelerator pedal and cuise control.

So I have a few questions obviously..  Where to start (what .xdf file to use as a base, what bin to start with), what things should I look to do (swapping maps, etc).
I'm pretty green to mapping/tuning, but I do work with calibration testing at an engine manufacturer, so I feel I will pick up on this fairly quickly.

For now, I'm not looking to tune in the sense of squeezing every ounce of power out that I possibly can, I'm just looking to configure/tune my ART working like stock in my B5 manual trans.  Once I get that and am confident with my successes, I might try to then dive back in later and modify.  But for now, I want to take the most cautious approach possible: I don't want to accidentally destroy my engine and waste my hard work so far with my swap.

I know others have done this before for setting up the ART to work with a manual trans (and specifically in the B5), but it was hard for me to follow details of how they configured that arrangement.

-Not looking for a spoon feeding, but some guidance would help me out a bunch!

Thanks a ton!
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SB_GLI
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« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2016, 10:25:12 AM »

Attached is a stock 4D0907559E Euro S6 file.  Hope it helps.

---

ME7Check v1.12 (c) mki, 06/2004-05/2012
Checking file C:\WinOLS (559E S6 (Original) - 360170) (size=1048576)
Reading Version Strings...
-> Bootrom Version = 06.02
-> EPK = 42/1/ME7.1.1/5/8001.07//23h/Dst03o/040800//
-> Contents of ECUID data table:
   - '0261206846'         (SSECUHN)
   - '1037360170'         (SSECUSN)
   - '4D0907559E  '       (VAG part number)
   - '0002'               (VAG sw number)
   - '4.2L V8/5V      '   (engine id)
-> Contents of ECUID data table:
   - 'HW_MAN004'

-> No errors found. File is OK.   *********************
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4loops
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« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2016, 10:52:54 AM »

O wow! I wasn't expecting such a quick response!  Thanks a bunch, you're giving me some hope, through all the confusion  Smiley

So my apologies for these next few very elementary questions,  Undecided but here'goes:

I see this is a winols file, and since I have the testversion installed I thought I would try to open it with that to take a look.  It appears I need to train myself on the use of winols.  Can you point me to a resource that could help me understand how to use it to view this file?  At the moment I'm still struggling to open this file in winols.

I need to go over the nefmoto software documentation again, but from what I thought I read, I'll need the flash file (.bin) and memory layout file (nefmoto software calls for .xml filetype, but I've heard the file extension .xdf used all around, not sure which is needed).
So at the moment I'm confused as to how I would get this winols file to where I could either view it, and how I would get it in the form of a .bin and .xml (or .xdf).

Again, my apologies for the absolutely elementary questions, but hopefully there is some wiki or documentation on how to go between these?

If I've said something silly too, just let me know.  -Always eager to learn more.

Thanks!!!
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4loops
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« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2016, 11:14:53 AM »

Ok, so I figured out how to open it with WinOLS Demo, by creating a new project and importing the file as a binary file.
So I'll have to learn what I'm looking at here.  I think I could figure out what maps are where if I found an .xdf file for the 560AE ECU?

If I'm looking at this correct, this actually is the bin file, right?  I would just need to add the .bin extension to it when downloading with nefmoto?  And I would have to make sure I found an .xdf file for this ECU -(or use the .xdf uploaded from the one I have) -that should work, right?

- Not that i would say I want to do that right now anyway, i first want to try to understand a bit about what's going on with the maps, and determine that all my ducks are in a row before I would think of downloading.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2016, 11:18:15 AM by 4loops » Logged
ddillenger
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« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2016, 11:36:35 AM »

Yes, this is the binary/flash/eprom contents. It is the calibration if you will, and if you add a .bin extension it can be flashed with nefmoto.

Attached is my old 559E xdf that I was working on prior to my switching to OLS. I haven't looked at it in years, and don't recall what is, or is not correct. Buyer beware Tongue
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4loops
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« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2016, 11:48:53 AM »

Ah, wow, wow, wow... I'm starting to grin from ear to ear.. You guys are such a HUGE help!
I'll really have to seek you guys out if I'm ever around wherever you are and get you a beer!

-I really do appreciate all the help  Grin

-Awesome, so it sounds like I have a complete set of files (.bin and .xdf) now, and could flash that if i wanted, and see how it runs.

But I'm going to first try to understand how the maps are generated and where/how they're located.
I think the map locations are specified in the .xdf file, which can be viewed with TunerPro, and I can use that to find those maps, by the specified address range in WinOLS.. right?  It looks like TunerPro has the ability to look at maps though, but it doesn't seem to have the power of WinOLS, plus WinOLS has what appears to have a nicer 2D and 3D viewer.  I guess you can't see the whole hex dump with TunerPro, though.  So I guess that's why WinOLS is so useful.  Is that the major reason to edit the bin's maps in WinOLS as opposed to TunerPro? -Just trying to understand the methodology of editing in which software, I guess.

Thanks again!!!
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ddillenger
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« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2016, 12:02:10 PM »

It's just about what makes the most sense to you I guess. Tunerpro is simple. It doesn't overwhelm you with info. winOLS isn't as simple, it's very daunting at first, but it's incredibly powerful.

You can connect the binaries, line up similar maps, and use OLS to visually show you similarities/differences, search for patterns, etc.

I have also attached the 560AE binary for comparisons sake.

Something you've failed to mention is that the S6 and A6 have differing intake configurations. One (A6) uses two solenoids to operate each stage independently, whereas the other (S6) uses one solenoid to operate the flaps in unison, and re-purposes the output of the second solenoid to control an air box flap. Leaving the solenoids in A6 configuration and running an S6 binary does terrible things.

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adam-
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« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2016, 12:03:42 PM »

Just for a quick clarification as it seems you are confused.

Imagine the .bin file is my novel.  Say I ask you to go and look up the fueling table?  You have no idea where it is or what to look for.  In order to "understand" the file, you need to understand what is on each "page" of the novel.

For this, you need an XDF or .kp file.  XDF is for TunerPro and .kp is for WinOLS.  Without these, you have no idea what maps are stored within my novel or what they do.

Since you now have an XDF, you can open your new .bin with TUNERPRO; NOT WinOLS! With TunerPro, you can navigate through the defined "pages" in the .bin and understand/adjust.

If you can get a .kp from a friendly user here, you can open the file in OLS and adjust it because you can see the maps from your defined .kp.

Imagine that the XDF (for TunerPro) or .kp (for WinOLS) is the contents page for the .bin.

As you said in the first paragraph, these XDF's or .kp's are peculiar to the specific .bin you have.  You cannot mix and match.

Furthermore, the XML for the Flasher is stored in the install directory (C:\Program Files (x86)\Nefarious Motorsports Inc\NefMoto VW Audi ME7 ECU Flasher\Memory Layouts) or similar.  There is a thread in here with the layouts for specific ECU's.  Smiley
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ddillenger
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« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2016, 12:10:02 PM »

I'd give you a kp, but you won't be able to open it without the current release I'm afraid. I can export a csv if you need specific map locations, just lmk. Happy to help.
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4loops
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« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2016, 01:33:36 PM »

@adam-
Sorry I wasn't so clear on what I understand so far.. Right, the xdf is the "directory" to the maps in the bin.
I didn't know the WinOLS equivalent "directory" -the .kp file.
For now I think I feel comfortable using the TunerPro environment of .xdf and .bin files, I'll try to stick to those when I can.  

That's what I was thinking, that you can't mix and match .xdf's with .bins, but I'm still wondering if the .xdf matches the .bin, if they can be loaded into an ECM that doesn't exactly match, say, placing these 559E files in a 560AE ECM.  My gut feeling tells me this is off limits.  I have a feeling that I need to have a .xdf that matches its .bin, and both of those should match with the ECM they're going into.  Am I right on that one?  -At least for this application?

@ddillenger
Right.  It looks like Tunerpro is the editor for me, for now, being a greeney.  I can use a simple look at things for starters.
I was thinking that was the big plus with WinOLS, to find these patterns and look at all the data in one window.

Thanks for the 560AE binary. I'll start comparing maps, and looking in the tuning wiki to understand what I'm looking at.

You're right, I did forget to mention that about the intakes.. I have learned earlier that the intakes for the A6 and the S6 were different, but I thought it was more of a size difference, I did not know the S6 was only a 2 stage intake (only one flap).

I also got a little excited and didn't see that what was initially provided were 559E files, not 560AE files.  I just wasn't thinking there.  More comparison must be done.

So I think I've just overwhelmed myself with questions, and not sure what order to ask them, and which ones are appropriate. Undecided

If my thinking is right, I need to create a complete & configured 560AE.xdf and a 560AE.bin to download to my 560AE ECU.  I don't think I can just modify these 559E files and download them to the 560AE ECU.  -This is kind of repetitive of the question I posed above.

Then if that is the case, I need to use the majority of the maps that are in the 559E Euro S6 .bin, and place/overwrite those appropriate maps into the 560AE bin.
-I'll have to learn which maps are appropriate to copy over.

But I'll have to consider what you mentioned about the intake flaps: I think I'll need to leave the stock 560AE [air handling]? map in place, so the ECU knows how to appropriately use the intake configuration: 2 flaps instead of 1 and an air box flap.  -Or better yet, I might have to copy the ART A6 558S air handling map into the 560AE, as the 558S and the 560AE are just a little different in intake manifold -or throttle orifice size, if I remember correctly.

-Am I getting that part correct?  Can the intake flap situation be taken care of if I change mapping information?  -Or is it more complicated, and maybe this is in base code, and not as easy as changing map tables?  -That's my biggest confusion right now, I guess.

I suppose I need to turn now to the tuning wiki, to see what map controls the intake flaps.  I've found a bit difficult to find so far though, most things are talking about 1.8 and 2.7 boosted motors.

Another side question about the intake flap differences: do you think it is in my best interests to a: change the ECU calibration to expect two intake flaps, or b: change the physical configuration of my intake flap actuators, and use one to actuate an air box flap??

I'll start comparing, hopefully I'll start to see how maps can be copied over to another .bin, and that the flaps can be controlled properly.
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4loops
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« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2016, 01:40:51 PM »

I'd give you a kp, but you won't be able to open it without the current release I'm afraid. I can export a csv if you need specific map locations, just lmk. Happy to help.

I think I'd like to try and stay in my "kiddie pool"  Wink of TunerPro for now, if i can..
But if you mention that you are unsure of your 559E.xdf file since it's been a few years, maybe that is the way I should go, then?
I'm not so sure I could do much with it for right now.. I think I would need to get a .kp of a 560AE, and use it's 560AE .bin you posted, so I could compare all within WinOLS.

I think I'm getting so much good information, too, that I need to digest it and play with it, to see what appropriate questions I should be asking.  I feel as if I've been handed a lot of good information, now i need to study over it before I can ask better, more directed questions. Cool
« Last Edit: March 16, 2016, 01:48:45 PM by 4loops » Logged
4loops
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« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2016, 05:17:42 AM »

Hmm, this morning I wanted to start comparing the 559E to the 560AE files, but I've realized I don't have all the information I need for that.
I have the 559E.xdf and the .bin, but for the 560AE, I only have the bin file.  Would you happen to have a 560AE.xdf definition file?
Then I could get to comparing the two.

I guess I could wait till I create my bench flash harness and pull the 560AE file (and I guess the .bin that's there too) from my 560AE ECU laying in the garage, but I guess I'm just a little ancy to start comparing.  -Just for confirmation that my thoughts are correct on this: I could take the .xdf from my 560AE ECU, and use that definition file for the 560AE bin you sent me, right?  I would think this is correct, if the .xdf is the specific definition file for that ECU, it shouldn't matter what 560AE ECU I pull it from, right?

So might you have a 560AE.xdf file already? Or should I just grab that from my own 560AE ECU?

Thanks,
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adam-
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« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2016, 06:02:33 AM »

I guess I could wait till I create my bench flash harness and pull the 560AE file (and I guess the .bin that's there too) from my 560AE ECU laying in the
The file that you pull from the ECU IS the .bin.

take the .xdf from my 560AE ECU, and use that definition file for the 560AE bin you sent me, right?  I would think this is correct, if the .xdf is the specific definition file for that ECU, it shouldn't matter what 560AE ECU I pull it from, right?
Yes.  As long as the .bin and the XDF match, it'll work.

So might you have a 560AE.xdf file already? Or should I just grab that from my own 560AE ECU?
You have to create/define the XDF from the .bin.  The bin is the container, the XDF is the contents page. Smiley
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4loops
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« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2016, 06:41:25 AM »

Aah, I thought when you read from the ECU, it pulled the .bin and a .xdf.  My mistake.  Only the .bin then.  Got it.

So if the .xdf must be created/defined from the .bin, that must mean that one must be learned at identifying for themselves what address each map starts and ends at?
If one must create the definition file, he must first know how to look at the .bin and know what he is looking at?

If so, man, I feel quite out of my league, and must do some major learning!  -And hat's off to all you who can do this!  Hopefully I can get there myself.
I am very much in the stage of "I don't know what I don't know".  It's more humbling as i discover how deep this rabbit hole goes! Tongue

Is there a wiki or documentation on how to create a .xdf directory file, from looking at a .bin?  A described method on how to identify where maps start and end?
I guess I could ask ddillenger for his csv for the 560AE he offered up, and that would immediately help me see map locations, but I'm curious how I could find this myself, too.
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hopsis
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« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2016, 11:33:16 AM »

I'd give you a kp, but you won't be able to open it without the current release I'm afraid. I can export a csv if you need specific map locations, just lmk. Happy to help.

I could sure use that. It's been months since I opened Winols, I need to do something before I forget everything Smiley
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