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Author Topic: Help with boost higher than expected  (Read 42835 times)
Tshirt2k
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« Reply #30 on: June 13, 2016, 03:27:19 AM »

Was thinking about Kfkhm. I read in another thread that ps_w can be reduced using this. I did try it and it did reduce, but it seemed to mess up fuelling so I reverted it back.

Comparing two files I have, one has a had Kfkhm highly modified in comparison to stock. I just read also that it is used to compensate for fuel.
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nyet
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« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2016, 09:27:41 AM »

Was thinking about Kfkhm. I read in another thread that ps_w can be reduced using this. I did try it and it did reduce, but it seemed to mess up fuelling so I reverted it back.

Comparing two files I have, one has a had Kfkhm highly modified in comparison to stock. I just read also that it is used to compensate for fuel.

If you lower MAF signal (either through KFKHFM or MLHFM) you'll have to compensate for fuel with KRKTE, KFLF, or FKKVS

The easiest way is to scale the MAF signal by a % and compensate with KRKTE.

If you have a bosch maf, you'll have to shift the whole MLHFM down by 200, scale it, then shift it back up.
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Tshirt2k
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« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2016, 10:37:08 AM »

If you lower MAF signal (either through KFKHFM or MLHFM) you'll have to compensate for fuel with KRKTE, KFLF, or FKKVS

The easiest way is to scale the MAF signal by a % and compensate with KRKTE.

If you have a bosch maf, you'll have to shift the whole MLHFM down by 200, scale it, then shift it back up.

Thanks for the info.

So let me get this straight. All 512 rows need 200 subtracted from? Then scaling by a % and then 200 added back on to them.

Is the scaling done by trial and error or does logs give a clue.

Also. In my XDF is it right that the voltage scale is all over the place unlike in winols where it is correct?
I only have a test version of winols to view full map definitions.
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nyet
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« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2016, 10:45:18 AM »

So let me get this straight. All 512 rows need 200 subtracted from? Then scaling by a % and then 200 added back on to them.
for bosch, yes.

Quote
Is the scaling done by trial and error or does logs give a clue.

Hard to say without knowing what is going on. If your MAF is reading too high (or you have a boost leak), your should also be running rich (assuming your KRKTE is correct).

Quote
Also. In my XDF is it right that the voltage scale is all over the place unlike in winols where it is correct?
I only have a test version of winols to view full map definitions.

Definitely not good.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2016, 02:03:03 PM by nyet » Logged

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Tshirt2k
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« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2016, 12:28:29 PM »

for bosch, yes.

Hard to say without knowing what is going on. If your MAF is reading too high (or you have a boost leak), your should also be running rich (assuming your KRKTE is correct).

Boost leaks have been triple checked, was first thing I did after getting maf signal too high dtc
Fuel follows requested fine. And fuel trims are good. I'm going to check maf part number. See if it's correct as seems to be no real reason for it to be wrong as it should all be standard.

Quote
Definitely not good.

I can't get map definition to match data source.


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Tshirt2k
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« Reply #35 on: June 14, 2016, 12:47:28 AM »

Figured it out using external manual and editing rows.
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Tshirt2k
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« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2016, 02:00:07 PM »

I scaled down MLHFM by 10% would this be enough? Too much? The load doesnt quite match requested but i still need to tweak DIMX. Feels better but fuel doesn't quite follow early on. I have increased KRKTE slightly.

Does the load need to follow requested exactly? Any maps that need to be adjusted?
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nyet
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« Reply #37 on: June 14, 2016, 02:02:43 PM »

Dude, that looks GREAT!

Seriously, good job. Get your trims in line (if you haven't already) and you'll be set.

Well done.
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« Reply #38 on: June 14, 2016, 02:13:40 PM »

Thanks  Grin

A bit more reading i think.
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nyet
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« Reply #39 on: June 14, 2016, 02:18:53 PM »

Thanks  Grin

A bit more reading i think.

Maybe I'm beating a dead horse by elaborating, but I'm impressed you did this on your own, by just reading, and from only questions in this thread.

Keep this up, you'll go far!

Post up any other issues/comments.

In particular, if anything you read seemed misleading or wrong (especially in the s4wiki), please let me know. Your feedback is super important.
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« Reply #40 on: June 15, 2016, 02:17:44 AM »

Now you mention it..  Wink
I must say, without your responses pointing me in the right direction I wouldn't have gotten this far. A lot of the info I have searched for is conflicting. Everyone seems to have their own way of doing things. So thanks for that.

The wiki assumes everyone starts with a standard(stock) car. In reality people add hardware from the start, especially with conversions and it throws most of the theory off track.
Also it seems to base everything on larger MAF housings. In my case everything was stock on the engine but due to having a larger DP, front mount intercooler and a cone filter/silicone TIP it seems it has affected my maf calibration. There's no real info on the effects it can have. It has been touched on with various posts but nothing conclusive. Most of the time I was trying to figure out what could be wrong. Also the fact that all of the above was also throwing my wastegate linearisation out. I had to do that before even starting on the MAF calibration.

Everything had to be done in a certain order but not necessarily to the letter.

Your simplification of the scaling makes it easier.
In the tuned file I have, everything MAF and fuelling related  was messed with apart from MLHFM. My XDF seemed to be partly defined but my issue regarding the voltage scale was resolved  by looking at your 2.7t XDF and copying the row numbers into mine.  I could then see the curve. Again no info anywhere apart from 0.0977 *(row numbers) which only relates to winols. 

It seems now that now I have rl_w and ps_w closer to to where it should be, is it right that I can tweak any areas in the high load areas with KFKHFM to get closer to actual boost? Then I can sort fuel in those areas with KFLF or FKKVS? Or is that not necessary?

There are more questions but I do like to research before asking.  It's not my first time tuning engines. Just my first experience with ME7.5, much different to standalone.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2016, 04:58:59 AM by Tshirt2k » Logged
nyet
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« Reply #41 on: June 15, 2016, 12:45:32 PM »

The wiki assumes everyone starts with a standard(stock) car. In reality people add hardware from the start, especially with conversions and it throws most of the theory off track.

Understood. The reason the wiki is written from that perspective, is that it is assumes that if you have a 2.7t, you're probably looking for either a stage 1 tune (stock everything, just ECU flash) or a stage 3 tune (turbos, injector, MAF)

You point is a valid one, though, there needs to be much more explanation about which map modifications are for which goal. I'll try to go through the wiki at some point to try to fix that. If you have SPECIFIC suggestions about wording, they are more than welcome, especially if you just want to log in and change the wording yourself!

Quote
It seems now that now I have rl_w and ps_w closer to to where it should be, is it right that I can tweak any areas in the high load areas with KFKHFM to get closer to actual boost? Then I can sort fuel in those areas with KFLF or FKKVS? Or is that not necessary?

So basically, fixing fueling is in two steps (most people are lazy and do it in one, either all in KFKFHM, KFLF, or FKKVS), the end goal being to get fuel trims near zero (or, for a narrow band car, add one wideband sensor readings to match req lambda).

1) MAF calibration (MLHFM, KFKHFM)
2) Fueling system calibration (KFLF, FKKVS)

As I said, most people are lazy and do it all in one step in one (or more) of those three maps (not MLHFM), depending on which axis values you like working with the most. You can too, if you like.

Now, if you are wanting to be exact, you can to do them one at a time, independently

for 1), typically, you'll have a MLHFM from the MAF manufacturer to start with. KFKHFM should be calibrated by comparing ps_w with actual boost (during WOT), and req load with actual load (in areas where you expect actual load to match req - e.g. req boost and actual boost are the same). You really can be arbitrarily far off with either (within reason) at the end of the day, though, as long as the discrepancy looks consistent (no really big swings either way).

Then you can move on to 2).

Now, FKKVS is SUPPOSED to be only for tuning returnless fuel system nonlinearities, but KFLF might not provide the granularity you need at high load (you tpically end up only getting  4 or 5 cells to work with for WOT fueling), so a lot of people do more tweaking in both FKKVS and KFKHFM to get fuel trims sane.

If you choose the KFKHFM route, you may notice that ps_w and actual load might start to wander from actual boost and req boost (respectively), but IMO that isn't a big deal, you really want your fueling to be right over having an accurate ps_w or load.

Long story short: don't worry about small ps_w or rl_w discrepancies, fueling is more important.

Hope that helps.

BTW none of that is in the wiki because of the "more than one way to skin a cat" thing... YMMV, I'm sure many will disagree with what ive posted.


« Last Edit: June 15, 2016, 12:48:23 PM by nyet » Logged

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Tshirt2k
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« Reply #42 on: June 15, 2016, 01:19:07 PM »

Thanks for the explanation. Helps a lot. I'll do some more tweaking to see how I go.
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Tshirt2k
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« Reply #43 on: June 15, 2016, 02:47:35 PM »

Question on KFKHFM.

Are cell numbers based on lambda or a factor of some sort?
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nyet
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« Reply #44 on: June 15, 2016, 02:50:33 PM »

Question on KFKHFM.

Are cell numbers based on lambda or a factor of some sort?

unitless scaling factor unrelated to lambda.
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Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your ex
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