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Author Topic: Finally going Meth  (Read 12796 times)
atdub
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« on: May 02, 2016, 07:44:37 AM »

So because of the upcoming hot summer days and the beauty of Nefmoto flasher combined with Win0ls for tuning ive decided to put together a basic WMI kit. Since I am on a budget with this upgrade its going to be running off a boost pressure switch instead of those fancy expensive progressive controllers that I seen alot of ppl using. Anyways before I start my install I was hoping i could hear from you guys running meth on acouple things.

1st "noob" thing im scratching my head on is what is a good reliable 12v ignition switch source that I could tap into to get my system running properly on my a4 1.8t b5? I thought about using the wire right behind my ecu harness but i really dont want to start hacking up the wires that runs the most important part of my car.

Now when its all set up and running I plan on taking logs and safely tuning timing in the areas that could use it via KFZW/KFZW2 as far as i read on here. Are there any other things i should be looking at? Thanks 
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Dave9n3
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« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2016, 08:44:47 AM »

Hi,

I'm doing something similar myself. I was just going to run a perm 12v from the fusebox and use a relay to switch the pump on and off (once the pressure meets my required boost pressure) maybe you could do that also?

I had a look at some threads on here and most people just change the maps youve stated KFZW/KFZW2.

I'm still unsure which method is best to tune for meth also. I have seen some people say tune without meth until you see 6 degree timing corrections and then add meth. others say to tune with meth as you would on pump gas until you see 3 degree corrections and then thats your max.

I think lambda readings will be affected as a result of the meth, do we set up a full tune on pump gas and then add meth and just accept it'll be reading a little rich?
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atdub
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« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2016, 08:56:27 AM »

That way of wiring seems simple enough and ill probably end up going that route. Out of curiosity tho if the pressure switch acts as an on/off switch couldn't it just run straight to the battery with a fuse because itll only activate once it see's desired boost? or do i run the risk of burning out the switch itself from constant power? idk im prob over thinking this because its been raining the past couple day and i haven't got around to installing it yet.

On another note I have seen both of those methods of tuning for meth but im still on the fence on how im going to go about?
if anything im only going to be changing timing in the higher loads/rpm. With my novice logic with tuning me7 im going to leave lamfa they way its set up on pump because majority of my power band is going to be spent without Meth.
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prj
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« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2016, 11:56:56 PM »

You either:
1. Get a proper kit with failsafe, do map switching and tune for it.
2. Get a simple kit with a small jet, and do not map for it - just take advantage of the fact that it will make more power on it's own with cooler IAT's.

Everything else usually ends in disaster.
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Dave9n3
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« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2016, 01:23:19 AM »

Prj,

I'd love to have map switching on my car though I don't know how to implement it. I know it doesn't seem easy but I'm willing to spend the time learning. Do I need to get familiar with finding ram locations within a file first? And if so what software is best for helping me do this?

Meth is the only reason why I'd need map switching, not sure if only needing to be able to change kfzw makes life easier in terms of implementing the map switching or not?

Previous to this I was just going to install a tank level sensor and tune to 3 degree timing corrections then add meth but I would like to properly take advantage of it with more timing. I plan to use a microcontroller connected to a MOSFET and control the duty cycle of the pump to increase as boost pressure increases so I get more meth with more boost Smiley
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armageddon
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« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2016, 03:13:25 AM »


Why not tune for meth and then use knock enrichment for when it fails?

Or use KFZWWLNM to retard ignition with iat increase?

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prj
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« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2016, 08:08:56 AM »

Why not tune for meth and then use knock enrichment for when it fails?
You can implement it through CNOKT, but if your engine is highly tuned and already near to component limits then this won't help.
By the time it reacts and the boost gets pulled down enough there is a high chance you have bent a rod or done other damge.
Not to mention it will do this over and over and over again, because it will knock every time. It will also cause runaway knock because the knock will be so severe that it won't be able to pull enough in time.

When I get +100hp from meth, I usually have a lot higher boost and up to 8-10 deg more timing...

Hence why I said - either run a small jet and don't bother mapping for it, or do it right.
As for implementing mapswitching yourself - good luck. If you do not have experience with assembly and coding or microcontroller development, you are better off paying someone to do it for you.

but I would like to properly take advantage of it with more timing. I plan to use a microcontroller connected to a MOSFET and control the duty cycle of the pump to increase as boost pressure increases so I get more meth with more boost Smiley
Complete waste of time. Pressure does not equate to how much WMI flow you need. You will just have huge consumption and the engine will bog down in the midrange if you actually run enough of it to make a big difference, as you will have the same amount at 4000 and 6000 rpm, whereas engine flow is significantly higher at 6000 rpm.

There is one system that does everything right:
http://www.aquamist-direct.com/806-063-hfs3-v3-1-system-a-truly-progressive-system-utilising-pwm-valve/
PWM IDC tracking, map switch output etc.

Everything else I have had the displeasure of working with has been quite bad.
What you are describing is not worth the hassle. Just save up some money, install Aquamist, buy a map switching solution and do it right the first time.

That's how I did it (minus buying the solution, as I write them myself), and that's how I do it for customers.

P.S.
I am not saying this because I want to sell you anything - I am just saying how it is. I have been installing WMI systems for years now.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 08:11:17 AM by prj » Logged

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prj
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« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2016, 08:13:29 AM »

Here is a recent dyno graph of a safe tune on a K04 2.7TT with and without WMI:

Pretty much 20% power increase.
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Carsinc
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« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2016, 06:11:19 PM »

You can implement it through CNOKT, but if your engine is highly tuned and already near to component limits then this won't help.
By the time it reacts and the boost gets pulled down enough there is a high chance you have bent a rod or done other damge.
Not to mention it will do this over and over and over again, because it will knock every time. It will also cause runaway knock because the knock will be so severe that it won't be able to pull enough in time.

When I get +100hp from meth, I usually have a lot higher boost and up to 8-10 deg more timing...

Hence why I said - either run a small jet and don't bother mapping for it, or do it right.
As for implementing mapswitching yourself - good luck. If you do not have experience with assembly and coding or microcontroller development, you are better off paying someone to do it for you.
Complete waste of time. Pressure does not equate to how much WMI flow you need. You will just have huge consumption and the engine will bog down in the midrange if you actually run enough of it to make a big difference, as you will have the same amount at 4000 and 6000 rpm, whereas engine flow is significantly higher at 6000 rpm.

There is one system that does everything right:
http://www.aquamist-direct.com/806-063-hfs3-v3-1-system-a-truly-progressive-system-utilising-pwm-valve/
PWM IDC tracking, map switch output etc.

Everything else I have had the displeasure of working with has been quite bad.
What you are describing is not worth the hassle. Just save up some money, install Aquamist, buy a map switching solution and do it right the first time.

That's how I did it (minus buying the solution, as I write them myself), and that's how I do it for customers.

P.S.
I am not saying this because I want to sell you anything - I am just saying how it is. I have been installing WMI systems for years now.


The first time I worked with Aquamist it was such a pain, but once I understood how it worked and how poorly it had been installed it all made sense
and I will also say it worked quite well.
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adam-
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« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2016, 05:07:07 AM »

Looks really good PRJ!  What's AIT's like, IE: do you have logs?  Curious to see how they look with meth.

While I had no interest in ever getting it because AITs are always low (sub 15*) in Scotland, I see no real benefit for it.  This thread could be an interesting discussion for a lot of members! Smiley
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Dave9n3
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« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2016, 04:08:18 AM »

Thanks for the reply Prj.

I think I jumped the gun so to speak, after seeing lots of kits activated by boost pressure. Now you corrected me I can see it was a silly idea. I imagine that aquamist

I realise that kit will be a lot better than one I may be able to make, however I would still like to make one. I have purchased a small nozzle. I could see that most of the kits are quite crude and literally supply X amount of water meth once a set boost level is reached. I'm hoping to use it for a university project, so even if it doesn't make it to my car it would be nice to make so thanks for the point in the right direction.

I will most likely buy the aquamist kit as it looks like really good value - and then be looking for someone to purchase a map switching routine from for my ECU (032TL ME7.5)


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prj
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« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2016, 05:04:34 PM »

While I had no interest in ever getting it because AITs are always low (sub 15*) in Scotland, I see no real benefit for it.
You could not be more wrong.
It is the temperature post-turbo that gets cooled. It is also effectively like running 110 octane race fuel all the time.
Do you really think on that graph 20% more power is achieved only due to lower IAT?

If that was the case, race fuel would not exist. Yet it does. And there are massive gains on it too.
It does not matter if you live in the antarctic, you will still have a massive power boost on WMI in the same conditions.

I see 15-25% gain on every single car I do. But I do it properly.
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FlyboyS4
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« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2016, 07:35:28 PM »

TorqByte has the best setup I've come across for building components of your choosing around the controller, and the capabilities of the controller software are excellent.
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adam-
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« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2016, 01:16:28 AM »

You could not be more wrong.
It is the temperature post-turbo that gets cooled. It is also effectively like running 110 octane race fuel all the time.
Do you really think on that graph 20% more power is achieved only due to lower IAT?

If that was the case, race fuel would not exist. Yet it does. And there are massive gains on it too.
It does not matter if you live in the antarctic, you will still have a massive power boost on WMI in the same conditions.

I see 15-25% gain on every single car I do. But I do it properly.

Did not know this.  I knew it increased the octane slightly, but did not realise it was that much, nor did I realise that that is how much more the power curve can increase by; 20% is a lot!  Will look into it.  At this stage though, the car is fast enough for a daily driver and I see no real gain (other than spending nearly £500) on a setup. 
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SB_GLI
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« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2016, 11:43:32 AM »

WMI is magic.  I gained at least 40whp on my 1.8t frankenturbo with WMI and proper tuning.
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