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Author Topic: ME7.9.10 - Understanding the torque model  (Read 200945 times)
jcsbanks
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« Reply #240 on: June 05, 2018, 04:39:27 AM »

I am cautious to imply too much from experience on other platforms, but generally unless you log knock "voltage" at more than twice the segment frequency (or log segment synchronous) it will be misleading if you try to compare it with knock retard which generally has a slow decay so you can see it with slow logging.
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woj
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« Reply #241 on: June 05, 2018, 05:18:26 AM »

Well, looking at the logs clearly this low res voltage is not equal to retard, in fact, there are I think voltage spikes where no retard is added but reduced. Nevertheless, I was just curious how it looks. The only thing I wanted to know if that, as it is presented, looks normal to you.
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woj
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« Reply #242 on: June 05, 2018, 01:37:14 PM »

Did some more logging and some experimentation (=advanced the ignition a bit in higher areas, this does not change anything in terms of retards, but the car feels more lively for sure), I also tried to variate driving a bit to see what the pattern is. I do have occasional retard free spots on highest load, but statistically it is mostly still there.

The only pattern that I can see is - the retards start almost exactly at the vicinity of 2300 RPM (at least in the logs), I think I have found only one spot where that was not the case. Some cylinders are prevailing in the retards, namely 1 and 4 (if I got the sequencing right), but it happens on all of them.

I looked at the maps again in my bin and the stronger 150hp bin (it has wider cams as far as the engine internals are concerned). There are some slight differences in KFKE-s, specifically on cylinder 1 the other bin seems to be made considerably less sensitive around the 2400 RPM spot on high loads. But there are cylinders that have the exact same config in the area of interest, so I am leaving this at rest for now. But, the windowing maps KFMAKR and KFMAKRZMF show something interesting. In both maps the values in the other bin are the same or slightly raised compared to mine, except for the two spots - RPM 2400, load 140 and 180 - in KFMAKRZMF, there the values are dropped by 3 degrees. To me that is too much of a coincidence, that's going to be my next test.

I know Mr. prj wants me to dive into the engine bay, but I see too much repeatability of the symptoms to dismiss calibration problem too quickly Wink
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woj
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« Reply #243 on: June 06, 2018, 02:21:07 AM »

Nope, that's not it either.
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woj
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« Reply #244 on: June 06, 2018, 09:39:06 AM »

This bloody thing behaves like regular fuel and actual knock - I added still a bit more ignition (in total 3-4.5 degrees w.r.t. stock ignition) in the areas of interest. Just to note - it is still way far from what the ECU has defined in ZWOP, the distance is around 10 to 15 degrees to ZWOP. The retards are still there, moreover, on the first pull they were excessive - all four cylinders, one went as low as -6 degrees, the total caused serious fuel add up, and so on. Even more importantly, I could hear with my bare ears that something is going on. It all really makes me wonder if one of the pre-owners did not do some serious head skimming. This all is too odd... Or, can the fuel be possibly so crappy, is that even possible with E85?
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jcsbanks
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« Reply #245 on: June 06, 2018, 03:14:05 PM »

You have some knock ears or similar whether mechanical or electronic, home made or bought that you can hear clearly what is going on?
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woj
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« Reply #246 on: June 06, 2018, 03:33:38 PM »

Yes, I actually do, the only problem is there is no easily accessible place to bolt the probe end on, requires lifting the car and all, I'll have to look again if I can strap it on from the top somewhere.
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woj
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« Reply #247 on: June 07, 2018, 01:06:14 PM »

I found a top accessible spot to bolt this on to the head, not ideal position but working. (Also turned out the line is too short - I made it for a smaller car and me sitting in the passenger seat :/, but never mind).

The log from the drive attached. I do not have knock trained ears, but I do remember the knock sounds from the previous project on an engine from the same family. I now defo heard this characteristic faint "metallic" tweeting / chirping sound on these two accelerations that have the retards showing in the log. I really wanted to record this, but I do the drives alone and it was just impossible. It does not sound like anything resonating or rattling against the engine.

So now, why do (I think) I have this knock? As said previously I played with the ignition, both ways actually, added up to 4 degrees, but also subtracted 1.5. And with the fuel. Now in the attached log it was all stock calibration for regular fuel (95 prescribed I think) running on E75. Earlier today I also logged a long drive when I was happily accelerating at different RPMs, but not doing many pulls from lower ranges. Much less retards there, but still existing. Could this have anything possibly to do with ignition tip in? I am inclined to do one more fill up with E85 to get higher ethanol content still, but at this point it should not matter, right?
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jcsbanks
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« Reply #248 on: June 08, 2018, 06:40:39 AM »

I don't think it is related to tip in (in the sense I usually think about tip in as a transient) since you've been at WOT for a few seconds before you have a few knocks at around 231s.

Your temperatures look OK, AFR if richened a bit earlier in the pull might prevent that knock, but it isn't a huge amount of boost for a high ethanol mixture and presumably modest compression ratio.

Again, not used to your platform, but if zwout is degrees BTDC timing on whatever cylinder happened to align with the datalog sample, the timing looks modest for the boost level and octane compared to many engines.

Also noticed your ethanol content drops a bit during a pull, not that that is responsible for your knock, but you might want to filter it after a learning period after a tank level change, or anyway.

If you think it is knock, and sounding like it and being ignition/boost/AFR responsive adds support to that, I'd be thinking of other causes like leaks, spark plug condition, oil vapour, blocked cat etc.

It is difficult to develop flex fuel tuning/other ideas without a known healthy platform. Not always feasible, but I would test new ideas on something already healthy AFAIK, so I'd use something as a test bed that has already been tuned to run on E85 and E0-10 and then I'm only testing new algorithms rather than fault finding at the same time.

Forgive if I've missed some detail you mentioned already, I try to contribute here from time to time, but it isn't my platform.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2018, 06:45:45 AM by jcsbanks » Logged
woj
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« Reply #249 on: June 08, 2018, 09:56:21 AM »

Many thanks for looking carefully at my log Wink Myself I have been thinking a lot, read and watched a couple of useful things. My last evening conclusion was that I should try to see what happens when I bring the ignition much closer to ZWOP (but with still some reasonable distance). This ended up in considerable ignition increase, in the low rpm / high boost area up to 14 degrees plus and down to +5 towards lower boost and higher RPMs. In any case, much more brave than before (I also felt that the stock ignition is very low).

And guess what - this did not make things worse, if anything it made things better. Still single retards of up to 3 degrees, engine feels much better, and for the very first time in a long while I could hear the turbo spool up like in my previous car. The pattern of retards also changed. And I managed at least twice to have my classic pull 1500-4000 rpm in 3rd with no retards. And the engine is still alive.

So, taking into consideration what you said, and adding the fact that I also effectively lowered EGTs with this I am now thinking oil / pre-ignition. The retards coincide with high modelled EGTs (I know this is not a measure, but no EGT probe yet). More so, now that you reminded me of that, I promised myself long time ago that I should clean and declog the oil separator. (Otherwise, I am not sure what the overall condition of my engine is, never took it apart, but I do take care of it in terms of basic service, and spark plugs are new BTW).

And yes, I know I try to do too many things at the same time (never said that, but in parallel I was experimenting with cranking fuel, finally got that right too I think), but I do not have another possibility.

In any case, experiments with E85 suspended, due to logistics I had to fuel up with Ron98 and will be flushing E85 out now and removing the sensor. Will come back to testing after summer. In the meantime, I will reanalyse my code for improvements and perhaps give the engine one more careful look over and do something about the oil separator.
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woj
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« Reply #250 on: June 08, 2018, 02:27:03 PM »

The read filter implementation was simpler than I thought, the filter is a simple old/new value weighting which hardens, based on a map, with time after the sensor has started to read. Wouldn't be saying this, but in the process I discovered a nice bug, which luckily did not get a chance to surface - when enabling internal logging of initial % samples of E85 for debugging, I was killing all essential scaling (KRKTE and fuel consumption) updates after the first 10 seconds of running (my sample logging period) due to a bad jump. That could have been very interesting... Wink
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prj
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« Reply #251 on: June 09, 2018, 05:18:58 AM »

pre-ignition is inaudible, no knock sensor can or will ever pick it up, but you'll know it happened when you have a hole in the piston.

Sounds like there is no knock and something is banging against the block to me.
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woj
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« Reply #252 on: June 09, 2018, 05:49:22 AM »

Yet again poor wording on my side (also was lucky so far no to experience any true engine horror). What I rather meant - doesn't oil in the mixture increase knock tendency / mixture burn characteristics? It should, otherwise folks wouldn't be installing oil catch tanks and all, no?

In any case, my breather / factory oil separator system needs a proper look over, regardless of it being the cause or not, the amounts of oil I see on the turbo inlet when take the pipes and plastics off to access the engine are difficult to miss (another problem is that there are probably deposits of it in the IC too). Or my turbo seals are gone...
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woj
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« Reply #253 on: July 02, 2018, 02:23:16 PM »

Mostly to keep this thread alive Wink As said earlier, due to logistics my E85 tests are suspended for the summer, but I was reviewing what I did and thinking a bit what I missed (having a full dash support for E-content display and correct low-fuel warning would be nice, but that's a different story).

The question - is it worth at all in your opinion to also mod the PCV duty cycle according to ethanol content to get a even more on-spot AFRs before STFT? I was getting the impression that on steady-state driving the STFT drifts slightly upwards to keep 14.7 and was thinking that that could be it, but not really sure. Modding TATEMSN is not a big problem (mod its linear I believe input vs. E-content), but not sure if it would be a waste of time or not.
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Assoor
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« Reply #254 on: July 24, 2018, 05:14:13 AM »

Hello i have this ori file which is 120hp version and along with it a tuned file which made the car boost up to 1.5/1.8 bar of boost till the revlimit.
im trying to see exactly what tables was changed by connecting them together and comparing the differences to the mito damos.
if you can see at 9C050 have significant change in map which is not found on the mito damos. im trying to make a list of tables which was changed :
KFMI_UM
KFZW_UM
KLDZWOM_UM
KLETAZW_UM
KFDMT_UM_0
KFDMT_UM_1
KFMMKH_UM
KFMOF_UM
KFPZU_UM_0
KFPZU_UM_1
KLLLRZU_UM
KLMIMAX_UM
KLMIMIN_UM
KLMZUMN_UM
KFKSWF
FIMWU
FMFKRNZ
98C0A
KFWMIFAL
KFWMIFALS
KFDMT
KFMMKH
KFMOF
KFPZU
KFMOF
998A8
KFZW
FZWWLRLN
KFZWWLNM
KFZWWLRL
AHEAGWS
NGALUN
NGALUST
AHEAGW
AHEKS1B1
AHEKS1B2
AHEKSB1
AHEKSB2
KFMSNWDKVP
KFMIRL
9BBBC
9bbE2
KFMIRL
9bf9a
DUKK
FUKVAE
TNSUUK
9C05A
FUKBAE
ZUKBAE

if any one can define what tables in the address i posted till be great to understand more about the module
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