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Author Topic: Allroad Compressed Air Quick Spool Switch  (Read 11791 times)
pablo53
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« on: June 18, 2016, 01:32:35 PM »

Ever since I finished my last build here, I've wanted to build a single turbo setup on a C5 allroad.    Well, I found the perfect project car a month ago (2002, 6-speed, 152K miles, bone stock, and needing a lot of minor work), so I'll be collecting parts throughout the summer for a winter project.

While rebuilding the airspring compressor, a silly idea popped into my head.   Why couldn't you spool a turbo with a shot compressed air to the turbine blades?

When I searched, I didn't expect to find anything, but lo and behold: http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/news/a27515/volvos-diesel-turbo-lag-solution-is-compressed-air/

And what better platform to add this to than the allroad.  The car already has the most important capabilities to make this work.  Implementation with a nozzle drilled and tapped into the turbine housing or up-pipe, and switch to activate it on-demand somewhere near or on the gear shifter or steering wheel would be fairly straight forward.

Anyone have any opinions on this?   
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vwaudiguy
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« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2016, 02:00:51 PM »

I think having enough flow/volume to do anything to make it worth the hassle would be the hard part. Then you would have to have a large enough container and keep it full for the compressed air. I didn't read the article yet.
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Carsinc
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« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2016, 08:09:07 PM »

People spend way more time complaining about spool time than they do waiting for boost.
Big turbo power comes at a cost that cost is spool time. That said there are few things in
life like the way a big turbo builds on a low rpm 4th gear pull.
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pablo53
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« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2016, 04:21:16 PM »

I think having enough flow/volume to do anything to make it worth the hassle would be the hard part. Then you would have to have a large enough container and keep it full for the compressed air. I didn't read the article yet.

Making this work would rely on good placement of the air nozzle in the system and the velocity of the air stream rather than volume.   The allroad suspension operates at 120 psi.   Think about how much force is generated by your home compressor with the blow-gun nozzle attachment.....

Maybe it's not enough, but I've decided to at least test the concept once I have the turbo on-hand.   Testing should be pretty easy since the turbo I plan to use is the BW EFR 8374. The EFRs have an integrated speed sensor the sells as an optional accessory.

People spend way more time complaining about spool time than they do waiting for boost.
Big turbo power comes at a cost that cost is spool time. That said there are few things in
life like the way a big turbo builds on a low rpm 4th gear pull.

OK.  Who's complaining?  Are you saying that if you had a simple means of spooling your turbo at any engine speed, you would refuse?

"Big turbo power" doesn't necessarily cost spool time at all - you didn't check out the link, did you?    Also take a look into both the Kinetic Energy Recovery System (KERS) and the Motor Generator Unit - Heat (MGU-H) in Formula 1 racing.  Eliminating lag is exactly what they do.

I have no idea if incorporating this compressed air spool idea into the allroad will work or not, but hell, it's no skin of my back to look into it further.

Thank you for your feedback.   Keep it coming.   Any technical problems anyone can think of?
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Carsinc
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« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2016, 08:20:51 PM »

Ok, some how I think the turbo on that Volvo is going to be a bit smaller than the single you will buy,

The point I'm trying to make is that is a lot of extra air at very low rpms that could be very bad, and
would require a ton of fuel. It would also create very high cyl pressure which would be bad.
But hey what do I know, screw it I would say a 67mm on a 2.7 making 25psi at anything under 2500
rpms could get real interesting real fast.
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pablo53
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« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2016, 10:30:21 PM »

Ahhh, wow, I can't believe I couldn't read between the lines on your first post.

Fueling takes care of itself - Intake path is not compromised.

What does the size of the turbo matter?  All control systems remain in place.  Boost would still follow LDRXN which can be tailored to keep everything well within safe pressure.

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nyet
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« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2016, 10:53:17 PM »

Fueling takes care of itself - Intake path is not compromised.

Injecting all that extra O2 between the MAF and the O2 sensor? Not sure I follow this reasoning..
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Carsinc
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« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2016, 11:17:53 PM »

Ahhh, wow, I can't believe I couldn't read between the lines on your first post.

Fueling takes care of itself - Intake path is not compromised.

What does the size of the turbo matter?  All control systems remain in place.  Boost would still follow LDRXN which can be tailored to keep everything well within safe pressure.



The size of few things in life matter as much as the size of the turbo.
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prj
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« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2016, 01:23:51 AM »

It has been done forever and ever.

It is called nitrous. Simply fit a 50 shot and you have exactly the same effect.
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pablo53
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« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2016, 11:21:35 AM »

Injecting all that extra O2 between the MAF and the O2 sensor? Not sure I follow this reasoning..


First off, turbo is the efr 8374 with .82 a/r internally wastegated turbine housing.   I figure I'd use some stainless tubing that would pass through between the two up-pipes as they merge, then straight through the t3 flange and an inch or two into the outside edge of the turbine housing.  Testing would determine best location and nozzle size.   Then add a stainless 1/8 npt or m10 on the outside of the up-pipe and tig it all up.  Can always plug the bung (te he), if it doesn't work out.     

Usage would only be for track and other special circumstances.   The setup would only be triggered at WOT.   I've been on hiatus the last couple of years, but wouldn't me7 fueling be running in open loop under these conditions anyway?

Narrowband 02 sensors will be upstream, in the up-pipes in any case. They will still be as close as I can get them to the t3 flange.   I'd already planned this O2 placement regardless of whether or not I continue on with the compressed air thing, so I am well aware of the possible issues of having them pre-turbo.  Apparently NTK makes narrowbands that do very well in the heat and pressure in case my stockers don't make it that long.

It is called nitrous. Simply fit a 50 shot and you have exactly the same effect.

Good point

The size of few things in life matter as much as the size of the turbo.

Concur!  What I meant was can you explain your logic for "Ok, some how I think the turbo on that Volvo is going to be a bit smaller than the single you will buy"?
I expect to get really good spool regardless, by building double walled, 1.5" ID up-pipes.   Everyone wants to do 2".
 
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Carsinc
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« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2016, 05:55:36 PM »

Wait, first nitrous is used to spool but it works way different than what we are talking about.
As far as manifold design I will message you direct to not change the course of this thread.
I agree that turbo will be awesome for a 2.7 but I see no reason for the compressed air thing, It
wont work unless it blows direct on the turbine or compressor wheel.

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nubcake
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« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2016, 01:43:06 PM »

Usage would only be for track and other special circumstances.

An allroad on track? Shrug.

As far as activation - it's a doable task. Binary control can be done with some unused stock valve output (N80, N112, etc).
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nyet
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« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2016, 02:02:53 PM »

I see no reason for the compressed air thing, It
wont work unless it blows direct on the turbine or compressor wheel.

This. The only way to supply enough (indirect) air is via supercharger or nitrous.

And blowing a tiny stream of air directly on either wheel is unlikely to change spool much unless the whole turbo system is designed to work that way from the ground up, imo.

That said, if you have time and money to waste, go for it.

Not sure how you'll get around fueling problems, though.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2016, 02:05:08 PM by nyet » Logged

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prj
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« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2016, 02:39:14 PM »

Wait, first nitrous is used to spool but it works way different than what we are talking about.
It actually works and is not a waste of time.
You do not need a lot of nitrous to spool the turbo, and a small well controlled shot won't actually hurt anything long term either.
Give it a go sometime. That's how all the small engines with big turbos are spooled...
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Carsinc
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« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2016, 08:05:28 PM »

It actually works and is not a waste of time.
You do not need a lot of nitrous to spool the turbo, and a small well controlled shot won't actually hurt anything long term either.
Give it a go sometime. That's how all the small engines with big turbos are spooled...
I have, but the nitrous does not spray on the wheel of the turbo, it goes in the the intake.
which spools the turbo in a very different way than what is being talked about here.
If you spayed nitrous direct in a turbo housing I'm kinda curious as to why?
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