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Author Topic: KFPED - what the maximal value is ?  (Read 23350 times)
vwaudiguy
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« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2016, 05:40:43 PM »

just cut the floor for more pedal
huge amount of powah will come
i guarantee

Or install 2 pedals! Grin

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nyet
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« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2016, 05:40:49 PM »

and other question - which other important maps use this factor Wink ?

Every single 16bit value that needs to represent -100 to 100 (signed) or 0 to 200 (unsigned).
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Bastek333
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« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2016, 11:23:41 AM »

just cut the floor for more pedal
huge amount of powah will come
i guarantee

Oh thank you tunning masters - asking as I would like understand this map - and where I have said that this map is giving more power ?

and especially for mr.fukenbroken - did you done any mechanical tuning on the car other than sticking the flame stickers with getting extra 20hp ?

I have done at least 10 engines rebuilds with modifications, have build completely from frame at lest 20 cars (replicas of sports jaguars) - so do not talk to me in that manor.

I'm good in mechanical changes and now I'm looking to gain knowledge of "virtual" tuning. Doing it on my own with my own car starting from scratch. Did good changes in Magnetii Marelli ECU for my rallye Peugeot 106 without even a DAMOS file...

So now I politely asking for help in Motronic area - but looks like is another wankers forum. That's all.   
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woj
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« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2016, 02:44:07 PM »

I tend to have similar sentiments, but perhaps not as strong. I treat attitude like that as an extra motivation simply.

120% values in KFPED are a bit puzzling, but simple to explain. I think this is a value "give me all you have and even more" as far as the throttle goes, limit this with other protection functions not to blow things up. Based on the torque from this map the requested load is calculated, then seriously cut by all kinds of limiters, so it does not make sense at first. But if you look at the LAMFA map, then it becomes clear. Only at 100+ requested torque the map gives extra fuel for power, at least in the ME bins I look at. (The fuel is going to be there nevertheless from LAMBTS, but as a matter of principle and separation of concerns it is done this way). So a short answer, 120% is there to get extra WOT fuel (even if redundant).

Otherwise, looking at all these maps and DAMOS and what not, take every thing you see with reservation. The amount of faults in them in large, and in the docs, and everywhere else. If you see something that is off, try thinking in terms of what it should be, not what it is.
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vwaudiguy
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« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2016, 05:02:47 PM »

120% values in KFPED are a bit puzzling, but simple to explain.

I have yet to see more than 100% in any KFPED maps I've seen. But I also mostly deal with VAG, so...

Can you show a file that has been correctly defined that has these values?
« Last Edit: November 27, 2016, 09:56:19 AM by vwaudiguy » Logged

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nyet
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« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2016, 06:45:59 PM »

Considering torque values are converted back and forth between signed and unsigned, I have a tough time believing 120% is meaningful.

What hex value are you seeing at what you think is "120%"?
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« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2016, 01:56:41 AM »

Considering torque values are converted back and forth between signed and unsigned, I have a tough time believing 120% is meaningful.

What hex value are you seeing at what you think is "120%"?

                           0000   0000   0000   0000   0000   0000   0000
0000   0000   0000   0000   0000   23AF   1395   0D37   09E6   076E   06A5   0599   0523   04F5   04DB   04D8
04D7   4522   2EF5   1FAF   1948   13DE   108F   0F33   0DE3   0D14   0CD1   0CCA   0CC8   62C3   4EC4   3B22
3161   28C3   2391   2066   1E3D   1C4A   1BA8   1B4E   1B4E   7606   66FD   577F   4CE2   40CB   39CC   34A0
3144   2E8D   2E6E   2E40   2E33   82CD   794D   6FCD   6735   5A2F   514D   4B00   46CE   432E   42C3   42BC
42B3   869F   7F9F   799F   7371   69A8   611F   5B00   56B0   5280   51AE   5162   515B   89F1   84F1   8071
7CD3   7514   6E71   6880   6380   5F24   5E23   5E0A   5DE6   8CE6   8966   8666   82A2   7D66   7866   7366
6EEE   69C8   68F8   68EA   689E   8FB8   8D38   8AB8   87F2   8438   7FB8   7C66   7869   7402   72E4   7268
7266   930A   910A   8F0A   8CD8   898A   868A   8333   7FFE   7C05   7A7E   7A51   79FE   95B0   9400   92D8
9108   8F00   8C80   8961   86CE   82C7   819A   8145   8106   97AE   96AE   95AE   952E   932E   91AE   8F80
8D08   8A14   8862   87A6   87A5   98A4   9824   9824   97A4   9724   9624   94D8   92E2   8FF6   8E8B   8DD6
8DD6   999C   9971   9971   9971   9971   98F1   98F1   98F1   978A   978A   978A   978A   999A   999A   999A
999A   999A   999A   999A   999A   999A   999A   999A   999A

That's the whole KFPED map in 16bit - the graph is exactly as on the first pictures I have published here.

The question about the factor/offset on this map was not taken from the "air" - I just looked on this ORI map and could not understand why Alfa Romeo engineers set the numbers on this range - max is not 2^15 and is not 2^16
The max values do not correspond to other maps max values - so it have to be some formula around it to calculate.
The 120% is just a thought when you get that 2^15 is 100% and the values in the map are higher.

Maybe as Woj said is just way over to use other restrictions - but this make no much sense when half of map is never used. Flybywire has own life so this make it even more complicated.

I can live with even not touching this map as probably is not doing any restrictions for other changes I have made in the file - but just would like to know how it is calculated to this numbers.

So if you guys have properly defined KFPED maps in the DAMOS could you just please take a look in the properities of that map and tell me what the formula is set to calculate the % ?
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woj
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« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2016, 03:55:30 AM »

See the attachments, interpreting the map with a sign and default conversion does not make much sense, at least not for me. Looking at the MED FR it suggests that the output of KFPED is very likely to end up untouched as input for LAMFA (= it can be truncated by mrspl, which is unlikely). So this would be one way of getting into the last column of LAMFA. But to be 100% one would have to check the code and see if the KFPED map is read with a procedure for unsigned values.

So which Alfa-Romeo setup you are talking about? My maps are from the different sorts of the Grande Punto Fiat t-jet version, it is likely that we talk about the same thing here, especially that we both have the 999A values. I don't believe there any offsets or different conversions, the only question is what the Italians were thinking of when they made the map going up to 120%. My theory is above.
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Bastek333
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« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2016, 08:16:51 AM »

See the attachments, interpreting the map with a sign and default conversion does not make much sense, at least not for me. Looking at the MED FR it suggests that the output of KFPED is very likely to end up untouched as input for LAMFA (= it can be truncated by mrspl, which is unlikely). So this would be one way of getting into the last column of LAMFA. But to be 100% one would have to check the code and see if the KFPED map is read with a procedure for unsigned values.

So which Alfa-Romeo setup you are talking about? My maps are from the different sorts of the Grande Punto Fiat t-jet version, it is likely that we talk about the same thing here, especially that we both have the 999A values. I don't believe there any offsets or different conversions, the only question is what the Italians were thinking of when they made the map going up to 120%. My theory is above.

My ECU is
ME7.3.1
261206708
277356576
3501819

This is Alfa 147 2.0 with selespeed gearbox.

As is no DAMOS for this 708-576 I have found damos for 204S - and been comparing parts of code to get the maps I been interested in. But this damos don't look as good as should as do not have proper scaling or even x,y - axis  not always looks right - so hard way of working with this.

Anyway - your theory make sense that this 120 in KFPED is matching last column of LAMFA (so value of KFPED becoming x-axis of LAMFA) and probably of few other maps.

So it will explain the "strange" value in the map and mean in short words that the 120 -> 999A is max value ... so just one small curiosity in this map - one value is just a bit higher 999C - but it can be engineering mistake or it do not matter.
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woj
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« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2016, 12:05:46 PM »

No, the max value is whatever the data type in the table allows, here 0xFFFF in raw format, 199.996...% converted. What you are asking what values make sense / make difference, nothing above 120% will make any, but you can put such values into the map. I think. I also would not expect this to have influence on anything else than LAMFA, but that's of course something to check in the docs.

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prj
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« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2016, 03:52:56 AM »

I have done at least 10 engines rebuilds with modifications, have build completely from frame at lest 20 cars (replicas of sports jaguars) - so do not talk to me in that manor.
Guess what, none of that gets you any further with tuning. Just because you built an engine doesn't mean you understand anything about how it works. In fact a 10 year old can build an engine if he doesn't have ADHD. All it takes is doing things as per spec.

Nothing to do with how an ICE operates or how electronic control for it operates. Just by posting what you have posted shows you have absolutely no clue.
Hence what you posted is about as relevant as me saying, that I have eaten 20 big macs, and because of that "you should not talk to me in that manner".

You need to ask less stupid questions and read more. Perhaps you should learn something about computers and data types first, so you know what an int16 and an uint16 are. That literally answers your question right there.
Or if you are better at doing things with your hands, then do things with your hands and pay someone who is better at tuning for tuning your car. You probably can build an engine faster than I do, but that still doesn't help you tune it.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2016, 03:55:08 AM by prj » Logged

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nyet
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« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2016, 01:25:34 PM »

signed 16 bit 0x999a is -26214, or -80
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Jim_Coupe
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« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2016, 12:51:01 PM »

The TT 3.2 VR6 have 110% max PED map.. some tunes ive seen for this lowers it to 100%
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« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2016, 11:52:52 PM »

The >100% values are for the kickdown functionality on cars with auto boxes, so that it gets transmitted to the box. There are no physical kickdown switches for quite some time, just some resistance under the pedal.
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Jim_Coupe
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« Reply #29 on: December 02, 2016, 08:52:13 AM »

Eureka !"
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