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Author Topic: Collaborative develpment vs proprietary and abandonware software.  (Read 8797 times)
nyet
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Because the industry is too busy jealously guarding their crumbs of information, so everybody constantly has to re-invent the wheel.

This enormous waste of resources means nobody has time to do anything properly: just one hack on top of another.
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ME7.1 tuning guide (READ FIRST)
ECUx Plot
ME7Sum checksum checker/corrrector for ME7.x

Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your experience.
gman86
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« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2017, 11:04:25 AM »

Because the industry is too busy jealously guarding their crumbs of information, so everybody constantly has to re-invent the wheel.

If I had a pint, I'd raise my glass to that. This statement applies to every corner of the tuning industry.
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prj
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« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2017, 12:07:46 PM »

Because the industry is too busy jealously guarding their crumbs of information, so everybody constantly has to re-invent the wheel.

This enormous waste of resources means nobody has time to do anything properly: just one hack on top of another.

LOL.
I think your reading comprehension fails you. To flash a valid binary on VAG MED9 you have to write the entire flash every time.
It's just the way the algo is.

If you want it faster, you need to write your own algo. For example like ME7 works where you can sum, erase and flash only a certain sector.
You will both have to make a flashtool and create/modify the bootloader in the ECU to allow you to flash it block by block.

Even if someone would release the ECU code to do that, there is still no purchasable flashtool that will do it, because it is not protocol.

The low-effort fast way if you want to develop something is simply solder a BDM connector. You will have to pull the ecu plugs every time, but you can have it turned around in about 3 minutes.
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nyet
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« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2017, 12:13:48 PM »

If you want it faster, you need to write your own algo. For example like ME7 works where you can sum, erase and flash only a certain sector.
You will both have to make a flashtool and create/modify the bootloader in the ECU to allow you to flash it block by block.

Which only has to be done once, by one person, who can publish the source. Which is the way it is done in sane development cultures.

In any case, it is a tragedy of the commons problem, as usual. There is no incentive to do any of that, let alone resources available to do it without a guaranteed ROI, so it will never happen. Like I said, a cultural failure.

« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 12:16:23 PM by nyet » Logged

ME7.1 tuning guide (READ FIRST)
ECUx Plot
ME7Sum checksum checker/corrrector for ME7.x

Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your experience.
prj
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« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2017, 04:43:56 PM »

Which only has to be done once, by one person, who can publish the source. Which is the way it is done in sane development cultures.

In any case, it is a tragedy of the commons problem, as usual. There is no incentive to do any of that, let alone resources available to do it without a guaranteed ROI, so it will never happen. Like I said, a cultural failure.

Please buy a one way ticket to North Korea and never come back... enjoy your communist shit there. Seriously.
Getting tired of the yadda yadda. You have contributed NOTHING here apart from flaming. No one cares.

You know, there are companies who make money out of tuning cars.
Having faster calibration flashing is their market advantage, so initial investment saves itself over time.

Just like my 4wd dyno and my 20 grand in flash tools are a market advantage against crap sellers here who use chinese shit to flash 25 eur ebay files. So I can make quality work for triple the money and still have my calendar fully booked.
If some of my development work finds itself on this forum through me releasing it to the community, then be GRATEFUL for it, rather demanding more and flaming. Or it will stop.

I guess you never ran your own company, so all you know is a 9-5 deskjob. When you are not on a 9-5 deskjob, then every moment of your time is money.
When you have infinite amount of work, you naturally pick the most interesting and/or lucrative work. You also learn to appreciate other's time a lot more.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 04:50:04 PM by prj » Logged
nyet
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« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2017, 05:00:34 PM »

so all you know is a 9-5 deskjob

My job depends on software, just like yours does.

Do you happen to know the history of ATT/BSD/USL?

Hint: I don't depend on SysV Unix, or WindRiver, or any of that shit code from shitheads.

Quote
or it will stop

Like I said, toxic culture.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 05:02:24 PM by nyet » Logged

ME7.1 tuning guide (READ FIRST)
ECUx Plot
ME7Sum checksum checker/corrrector for ME7.x

Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your experience.
prj
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« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2017, 05:03:07 PM »

The only one toxic here is you. Stop flaming if you have nothing useful to say on topic.
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nyet
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« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2017, 05:14:36 PM »

Lets see: the single most useful programs by in this community

1) me7logger - closed source abandonware
2) NefMoto Flasher - closed source abandonware.
3) galletto bootmode flasher - dos mode closed source crap.

Wow, thats awesome!

In my daily work, every single tool that we use we have access to the source to (from the bottom up, at every level) fix problems ourselves. Period.. Even better, when we fix problems, they get incorporated upstream. Bottom line? Everyone makes more money, has a better ROI, and spends less time re-inventing the wheel, and struggling to fix bugs that they would otherwise have to depend on VENDORS to fix.

If you have never experienced this, you will simply never understand it. It has nothing to do with communism or any of that other bullshit negative connotation shit (I have heard it all, believe me). It has to do with getting shit done (and bugs fixed and TESTED)  in the most efficient way possible - by leveraging large scale effort and collaborative tools.

Because I have experienced trying to develop (both large software projects and embedded systems) in the other laughably stupid proprietary world (AT&T/USL/WindRiver etc) run by complete assholes.

Flame me all you want; you are the last person to complain about anyone being harsh or mean for speaking their minds. It won't stop me from calling the things the way I see them, just like you call things the way you see them. I would never DREAM of asking you to shut up.

Also, topic split.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 05:18:23 PM by nyet » Logged

ME7.1 tuning guide (READ FIRST)
ECUx Plot
ME7Sum checksum checker/corrrector for ME7.x

Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your experience.
prj
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« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2017, 05:25:01 PM »

Only thing worth anything about ME7Logger is the parser that parses the structure in asm and assigns variables.
But I already wrote a script in IDA that only needs structure start address and then based on assembly code alone points you to the definition of the block.

Making a replacement ME7Logger is trivial. The difficult bit is ME7Info. Because you have to define every block/ram value. It just takes a lot of time to do it.
I can post the code that is behind the ME7Info tree traversal but I have no time to do block-by-block stuff. And you need to do a lot of blocks - you can make some assumptions that some vars are always next to each other in memory of course, but it's still a lot of blocks.

Nefmoto flasher - useless imo, I have my own flash tools.

Galletto boot flasher does what it says on the tin, runs even under Win10 without issues. IDK why you need the source to that.
If you don't want to use it just use minimon, does exactly the same thing. Or write your own. Probably would take a day to do it. You can just sniff Galletto's bootstrapper and write a custom tool to deliver the payload.

As for work - this forum has very little to do with "work".
Most gasoline stuff I work on is ME17/MED17/SIMOS8+/MSD8+/MSV8+ and then some Denso and Mitsubishi thrown in the mix. Not to mention ZF6HP/ZF8HP and all the DSG and DCT boxes.
You have no idea how deep the rabbit hole goes on new ECU's where often just to make a proper tune you have to make asm mods because boost control is not possible to calibrate by a human being.
Also the FR documents are 20 000 pages and the damoses have over 20 000 calibratable labels. Those are available for very little money, but to actually make sense of them needs many years of experience.

New kid on the block is Bosch MDG1 - no idea what will happen with that. If half that is said is true RIP tuning from 2018 on.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 05:29:00 PM by prj » Logged
bobbyz0r
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« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2017, 08:24:16 PM »

From an economics point of view, it is irrational for firms in the industry to share information which cost them resources to obtain. Without the monopoly power associated with product differentiation (eg. new protocols, etc.. ), then there is no economic rationale for trying to develop new protocols to flash newer ECUs/TCUs.

It's essentially the same problem faced by the pharmaceutical industry. There needs to be an incentive to develop new technology. Everyone wants to be the first to release a protocol to flash x ECU before everyone else to capture the market. If sharing information increases the chance of another company releasing it before they do, then they will not share information.

It's the sad reality, but this is an industry that is driven on proprietary information, like it or not.
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mister t
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« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2017, 08:55:15 AM »

From an economics point of view, it is irrational for firms in the industry to share information which cost them resources to obtain. Without the monopoly power associated with product differentiation (eg. new protocols, etc.. ), then there is no economic rationale for trying to develop new protocols to flash newer ECUs/TCUs.

It's essentially the same problem faced by the pharmaceutical industry. There needs to be an incentive to develop new technology. Everyone wants to be the first to release a protocol to flash x ECU before everyone else to capture the market. If sharing information increases the chance of another company releasing it before they do, then they will not share information.

It's the sad reality, but this is an industry that is driven on proprietary information, like it or not.

Actually, the pharmaceutical trade is actually a bad comparison.

Check the stats here https://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/lsg-pdsv.nsf/eng/h_hn01703.html

24 Billion in total sales in 2015.

-15 Billion in patented drugs

-9 Billion in non-patented drugs.

-0.87 Billion spent on R&D....

That's right, R&D consitutes 3.5 cents on the dollar (as applied to gross revenue).

Selling drugs at an obscene mark up to recoup development costs is an absolute fallacy and the numbers presented in this report don't lie.

The stark reality is that the bulk of pharmaceutical sales come from changes in delivery systems (i.e. sustained release tablets) or 'me too' drugs, which are simply existing drugs which are approved for other off label applications.

You want to know where most of the Pharmaceutical company spending is concentrated... advertising and buying off doctors with perks and trips if they push the 'flavor of the month' drugs to their patients.

Furthermore, no one ever acknowledges that often times, pharmaceutical companies often get free R&D in the form of information from studies performed by public institutions (i.e. Universities).

But when it comes time to actually develop a drug for sale, private pharmaceutical companies take the leg work performed by public institutions, run the necessary clinical trials, patent it and sell it at obscene mark ups without any revenue sharing to the publicly funded institutions which did the 'heavy lifting' in the form of early studies and pilot trials.

Anyway, just had to get that off my chest I guess lol.

« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 09:00:40 AM by mister t » Logged
mister t
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« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2017, 09:16:16 AM »

Lets see: the single most useful programs by in this community

1) me7logger - closed source abandonware
2) NefMoto Flasher - closed source abandonware.
3) galletto bootmode flasher - dos mode closed source crap.

Wow, thats awesome!

In my daily work, every single tool that we use we have access to the source to (from the bottom up, at every level) fix problems ourselves. Period.. Even better, when we fix problems, they get incorporated upstream. Bottom line? Everyone makes more money, has a better ROI, and spends less time re-inventing the wheel, and struggling to fix bugs that they would otherwise have to depend on VENDORS to fix.

If you have never experienced this, you will simply never understand it. It has nothing to do with communism or any of that other bullshit negative connotation shit (I have heard it all, believe me). It has to do with getting shit done (and bugs fixed and TESTED)  in the most efficient way possible - by leveraging large scale effort and collaborative tools.

Because I have experienced trying to develop (both large software projects and embedded systems) in the other laughably stupid proprietary world (AT&T/USL/WindRiver etc) run by complete assholes.

Flame me all you want; you are the last person to complain about anyone being harsh or mean for speaking their minds. It won't stop me from calling the things the way I see them, just like you call things the way you see them. I would never DREAM of asking you to shut up.

Also, topic split.

So, let me ask you this: Would you be willing to take that skill set and apply it in order to develop some new flashing options for the community at large?

Let me be clear, I'm not asking this to call you out, I think you have a very unique skill set which could be used to better this community as a whole.

Further, I think I speak for the community here when I say that any contributions in that sense would be much appreciated.

So, what do you say?  Smiley
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nyet
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« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2017, 10:52:09 AM »

So, let me ask you this: Would you be willing to take that skill set and apply it in order to develop some new flashing options for the community at large?

Of course I would.
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ME7.1 tuning guide (READ FIRST)
ECUx Plot
ME7Sum checksum checker/corrrector for ME7.x

Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your experience.
mister t
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« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2017, 05:14:03 PM »

Of course I would.

Nyet, seeing as you're willing to put your time into developing some new options for the community, I have PM'd you what I hope will be some useful information. Check it and let me know if it's of any use to you, hopefully it is.

*thumbup*
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vwaudiguy
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« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2017, 09:23:43 PM »

Seems kinda secret handshake to me.  Tongue
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