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Author Topic: "Dieselgate" TDI ECU 'Defeat Device' Analysis Paper  (Read 19976 times)
jibberjive
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« on: May 23, 2017, 12:28:03 AM »

I'm not sure if this has already been posted here, and feel free to delete if so, but here is a thorough analysis of the 'defeat devices' on the TDI ECU's that was published not too long ago. It talks about the conditions and tests/routines the ecu runs to know whether it was currently on an emission test, etc.  Pretty cool analysis!

https://www.ieee-security.org/TC/SP2017/papers/101.pdf
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aef
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« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2017, 01:03:24 AM »

additional

https://media.ccc.de/v/33c3-7904-software_defined_emissions
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ReproLogic
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« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2017, 03:40:29 PM »

Interesting! Thank you. Wink
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Mechsoldier
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« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2017, 04:37:46 AM »

Interesting! Thank you. Wink

Long read. I saw something about the steering wheel. I'd assume the gist of it is that they knew the dyno test was a certain speed or driving cycle...but additionally the engineers knew that there's literally never any time when the steering angle doesn't turn, and there's NO lateral or transverse acceleration detected, thus if you're quarter throttle and don't even have a tenth of a g of accelleration then you're on a dyno and cut the power.

The dumb part is that their whole anti tuning stance is what fucked them. They didn't even NEED to do this, from what I've seen it resulted in like a 15 or 20% increase in torque or power. I couldn't find the power increase, but here's a link to a video showing how they BELIEVED they were turning the cheat mode off.

https://www.wired.com/2015/10/vw-diesel-cheat-mode-mpg-performance/

As it shows, they barely got faster, if at all. Mostly, it caused it to lose fuel economy, like 4 or 5 mpg. So it seems that the cheat was more likely done to give it better fuel economy in testing. That's VERY strange to me, because I always found the sticker MPG to be lower than what I could get real world if I babied mine. I was happy being able to go full throttle everywhere I went and get 38 mpg or so in my 2013 Sportwagen.

If they did it for power that was really dumb because the majority of people buying them weren't doing it for power reasons, and it was plenty fast stock, plus chip tuning could take care of it.

It sounds to me like they leaned it out, which increased fuel economy, and running more lean also caused a power increase very slightly in some models because more lean is more power, and it caused the required increase in fuel economy to try to put it higher over the Prius while still being equipped with the luxury VW and Audi owners expect, which adds weight.

What I can't believe, is that they didn't think somebody would find out. I also can't believe that the testing authorities in governments aren't testing the vehicle in real world conditions with a mobile gas analyzer. We're finding out the economy but we aren't doing it with the largest  causes of restriction upon movement? Gravity forces and wind/needing to move the weight of the vehicle. It's stupid and 40 years behind the times. It's really the governments fault.

If I was the engineers though, I would have realized that the tuning industry would eventually put a car on a dyno that was tuned, which I ASSUME would still enter the testing mode and just change the numbers relative to the stock maps. The guys who tuned it would then wonder WHY the numbers were lower than anticipated due to simulators, or guessing. Then hook a Gforce or any app on their phone up to measure real world numbers and figure out something was amiss.

Tune it like it needed to absolve the company, and then enter a joint business venture with a tuning company to allow them to have their people tune the vehicle for power, absolving you of sin.

I'm still confused why the EPA hasn't gone after APR, or HPA, or JHMotorsports or something since the law is written that, "Any modification to an emissions system is a  $10,000 dollar fine." Literally any tune modifies the emissions of the vehicle.

It's rare for a shop to do, but I HAVE seen overcautious shops that go by the technical rule that if you're going to do any readiness or emissions defeats, the car should be an "off road" vehicle. Meaning, even if it's street registered, the owner needs to claim it's an off road vehicle only, and make them tow it in and out of the shop to protect yourself.

Here in Washington at least, I've never heard of anybody getting messed with. I'd assume California it may happen.

I THOUGHT that Dodge used to have tunes authorized by the factory done at the dealer, but I can't find them. But I DID find this. They're releasing something for the Challenger Hellcat called the Demon Crate, it's going to come with a snap on jack, electric impact, wheels, and a SPARE ECM loaded with a 100 octane race gas tune. Read the following.

"The tune will be included in the Demon crate on a separate engine computer that the owner can swap out when he or she is ready to race. In addition to the computer, the center stack also has a button to activate the high-octane mode. A pair of fuel pumps and larger injectors also ensure the engine gets plenty of that sweet racing fuel.

When not running the high-octane tune, the Demon runs on your average premium gasoline. Also, in case you accidentally run premium gas with the high-octane mode activated, the car will automatically switch to the default tune if engine knock is detected. You can get a peek at the system in the video above, and be on the lookout for a bonus video tomorrow. The full reveal will be next week on April 11 at the New York auto show."

Key there, "If you accidentally run premium gas with the high-octane mode activated, the car will automatically switch to the default tune IF ENGINE KNOCK IS DETECTED"

Now, on the stock tunes we have, our timing pull will allow you to run 87 with enough timing pull AND MORE to run 87. This car uses the AC to cool the intake or intercooler (looking for pics and specs still) similar to what they were going to do with the Ford Lightning and scrapped. I want to do the same, put a parallel evaporator in the water tank for an air water intercooler to get 40 degree intake temps all the time  Grin so my guess is that you can run the high octane mode all the time on the street, and it may pull a few degrees of timing, but the amount of timing it pulls, with the increase in boost it offers, is likely still going to be possible.

When it comes out in a week we shall see, but my guess is people can still run it unless it's super hot where they live, and it'll stay in high octane tune...Then Dodge can claim it's for track only it's not supposed to be installed and be in the clear.

If VW just freaking made better inroads with tuning companies they wouldn't need to absorbe the risk. Or make a TDI cup ECM...

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prj
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« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2017, 04:00:56 PM »

It sounds to me like they leaned it out, which increased fuel economy, and running more lean also caused a power increase very slightly in some models because more lean is more power, and it caused the required increase in fuel economy to try to put it higher over the Prius while still being equipped with the luxury VW and Audi owners expect, which adds weight.
Stopped reading here.

Just a heads up to others on this thread - this person has no idea how a diesel combustion engine works, so take what he writes with a grain of salt.
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turbojohan
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« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2017, 12:38:22 AM »

LOL make diesel leaner than it makes more power  Grin
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IamwhoIam
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« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2017, 06:53:43 AM »

LMAO
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THANAS
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Yes.


« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2017, 07:49:15 AM »

That's how a diesel works without a throttle. When you lift off the pedal it keeps adding more and more diesel until the motor cuts out and slows the car down.
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adam-
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« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2017, 08:04:03 AM »

Long read. I saw something about the steering wheel.
You didn't read it at all.  Read it properly, from start to finish and you'll see you're in the rhubarb.
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Mechsoldier
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« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2017, 01:35:13 AM »

Stopped reading here.

Just a heads up to others on this thread - this person has no idea how a diesel combustion engine works, so take what he writes with a grain of salt.


Look what I said AFTER that, I MEANT economy, which is why the next sentence talks about how they did it for economy. It DID result in power though. They changed the fuel TIMING as well and I know that had an effect. I assure you I know what's up. I was an ASE Master tech at 20 years old, the youngest ever as far as they know. I was a Mechanic in the Army Hmwvee, 2.5 ton, 5 ton, and I'm a VW/Audi master tech. I have

I also have a degree in CNC machining, had a 3 axis CNC mill until last year. I can build an engine from scratch if I wanted to. Sorry to be that guy but if you're going to call somebody out about knowing nothing, probably best not to do it with a guy with a deal with Continental Belts to advertise for them/knows the CEO.

You should PROBABLY also know what the fuck you're talking about yourself and 5 minutes would have taken you



Air fuel ratios DO apply to diesels. Diesels run shit tons of fuel when under extreme boost, but they have stoichiometry, and you CAN build power with it, they add fuel MOSTLY to keep EGT low, which is what WRC racing had to do when water injection was banned.

Fuel is done for COOLING, and for emissions (cat function). It doesn't need to be. It makes more power than gasoline and runs hotter, it needs more cooling for EGT reasons. Read this. Towed a 5000 lb trailer on a banks tuned Dakota with a cummins, got 24 mpg to Utah and back.

http://bankspower.com/magazines/show/608-no-smoke-with-fire

SMOKE FREE
His first step was to make the engine smoke free:  ‘It smoked without the turbo, but the minute I put the turbo on I could put enough air through the engine to combust all the fuel within the combustion chamber, rather than pump out smoke.'


http://www.trucktrend.com/how-to/expert-advice/0904dp-diesel-engines/

"Another reason for diesel's power is the diesel fuel itself. It contains 15% more energy per gallon than gasoline. Additionally, a diesel engine can run extremely lean and without the pumping losses associated with a throttle. In a gasoline engine, a rich fuel-air mixture is used to keep combustion cool and catalytic converters operating properly. A diesel can run very lean and still have low exhaust gas temperatures."
« Last Edit: June 10, 2017, 01:52:50 AM by Mechsoldier » Logged
Mechsoldier
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« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2017, 02:01:42 AM »

You didn't read it at all.  Read it properly, from start to finish and you'll see you're in the rhubarb.

Sorry I have a habit of that. I got to the part describing how diesels work and the emissions systems and shit and trailed off at the stuff I knew. They also basically used the knowledge that they know how long the vehicle drives at each rpm, plus steering.

That was part of what I was talking about kind of, this is the procedure for test drive, they know what speeds and how long they drive it and used that to their advantage. Which is why I said they need to do this by ACTUALLY DRIVING the thing. Like a test drive. Drive it through a couple tanks of fuel, road trips, city, mixed, and have it hooked to a gas analyzer. How hard is it to have employees drive the car to and from work like a shop.

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adam-
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« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2017, 04:08:02 AM »

Steering input has nothing to do with it though.
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TijnCU
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flying brick


« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2017, 06:49:36 AM »

Which is why I said they need to do this by ACTUALLY DRIVING the thing. Like a test drive. Drive it through a couple tanks of fuel, road trips, city, mixed, and have it hooked to a gas analyzer. How hard is it to have employees drive the car to and from work like a shop.

Because you need a controlled environment to have repeatable data. It is the same with car manufacturer fuel consumption numbers, that also come from controlled environment testing. If you dont use a controlled environment, it is impossible to verify or compare data. Data would vary from day to day.
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prj
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« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2017, 02:17:09 PM »

Air fuel ratios DO apply to diesels. Diesels run shit tons of fuel when under extreme boost, but they have stoichiometry, and you CAN build power with it, they add fuel MOSTLY to keep EGT low, which is what WRC racing had to do when water injection was banned.

Fuel is done for COOLING, and for emissions (cat function).

Please, keep talking and making an even bigger fool of yourself.
None of your dickwagging is going to make up for your lack of knowledge. Go pick up a book.

To others - the sentences above are validation that this person has no idea how a diesel engine works, let alone has ever tuned one.

« Last Edit: June 10, 2017, 02:19:22 PM by prj » Logged

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turbojohan
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« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2017, 05:31:50 AM »

Yes you can get cooler EGT with more fuel in a diesel.
But not in a range you can use on the street.
From 10:1 / 15:1 range you can get cooling from extra fuel but will smoke like HELL...
Truck/tractor they do it this  way, but smoke is extreme!
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