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Author Topic: Compensating for Injectors With Dfferent Spray Patterns? Driveability...  (Read 5551 times)
jpurban
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Porsche 996 Turbo - Upgraded from stock injectors with single conical spray pattern with 20 degree cone to (Bosch 298) injectors with dual cone spray pattern that is separated by 25 degrees. 

Steady state fuel trims are good (less than 3% throughout the MAF range) following TVUB and KRKTE changes.  WOT lambda is on target following KFLBTS changes.

Having a problem with partial throttle acceleration enrichment -- stuttering (lean out to 1.4 lambda momentarily) in low rpm range (1,200 to 2,500).  Think initial take-off and cruise shift points -- both under moderate load.  Worse when engine is cold soaked (initial start-up).

Need some advice regarding this issue from anyone that has encountered in their tuning.  I know I need to dial in at least some of the following tables:  WFRL, KFBAKL and KFABAK.  I'm logging and reviewing tip-in performance, but can't seem to make the right changes.  I've left WFRL stock since decel enrichment/enleanment is pretty good and focused on BAKL and ABAK.  I've progressively increased both significant amounts in the regions of concern, but the issue persists.  Increased short/long splits from OEM levels of 0.10 to as high as 0.35 and observed initial lambdas low (rich) enough to stall the motor off idle (below 0.7) -- that was not fun in traffic Roll Eyes.  Scaled up OEM KFBAKL from warm engine levels of 0.13 (yes, that is right) to values over 3.00.   So, simply scaling my OEM curves up doesn't work (too rich at idle tip-in, too lean between 1500 and 2000 tip-in).  I'm now at the point that I'm testing these maps with "shapes" that are significantly different from OEM (putting a big hump in the middle rpm range - distorting the OEM declining exponential curve).

Just looking for some lessons learned by folks that have been down this path before...  especially after changing injectors with different spray patterns.  I'm using trial and error testing at this point to find proper values, but there must be a better way...

Read the FR section ESUK, but the application notes basically say calibrating tip in should be done on an engine dyno in a very controlled environment...  with a lot of test time to cover all the possible load changes. 

Thanks for sharing any insights.
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nyet
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Having been somewhat down this road with the 5V 2.7t I can tell you that at some point, if you use an injector pattern that is unsuitable for the intake/valve configuration, you're just boned, period. There is only so much map tweaking you can do to get around cold start limitations.

If you are building a pure WOT car then nothing really matters at some point - you just need to get the fuel down the intake valves and pray the high flow and insanely high intake/cyl temps fix any wall wetting/atomization problems.. But for cold start, idle, and part throttle on a street driven car, choose your injector pattern wisely.
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Rick
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Unless you haven't calibrated FKKVS properly in steady state - which needs doing on a load controlled Dyno, I would cut your loses and go for a more suitable injector. 

Rick
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vwaudiguy
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Unless you haven't calibrated FKKVS properly in steady state - which needs doing on a load controlled Dyno, I would cut your loses and go for a more suitable injector. 

Rick

Any chance he could use FKKVS fixer as a substitute?
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Rick
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That can be used but you still need to reach all the breakpoints in order to tune them.
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nyet
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FKKVS can't fix wall wetting issues... If your injector is spraying significantly less % of its volume directly into the open intake valve, part throttle/idle you're going to have problems since the airflow is so low - atomization is highly spray pattern dependent.

At WOT it isn't such a big deal since you're probably over 50% DC anyway, and anything over 50% dc is pooling behind a closed valve, but at least getting atomized by a lots of turbulence from high flow (as I understand it anyway, YMMV) and high temps (if motor is up to temp)
« Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 10:02:30 AM by nyet » Logged

ME7.1 tuning guide (READ FIRST)
ECUx Plot
ME7Sum checksum checker/corrrector for ME7.x

Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your experience.
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No it can't, but often issues are exaggerated by non linearity at small pulse widths so it needs to be perfect first.
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jpurban
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Dammit...  Had a reply written and hit the backspace button and the browser went "back"... lost the reply.  Ugh.  Alright, I'll try again... 

Long story made short... On a flyer, I decided to disable DFCO (deceleration fuel cut off) to eliminate some "noise" from my logging and make tuning easier.  Flashed the car before work this morning and unexpectedly found my stuttering greatly diminished -- by 90% maybe.

Don't get me wrong, I still have AFRs that bounce around the target too much for my liking at tip-in and tip-off, but they're essentially unnoticeable by the "butt dyno", except when the engine is cold (and even then, not bad).

BTW, my new injectors very likely have a better pattern than OEM.  Like most modern cars, I have 4 valve heads, but my old Porsche came with single cone, straight shooting injectors that certainly are not current state of the art.  The OEM injector was directed between the two intake valves as a compromise, but lacked tilt so that it was skewed toward the runner wall.  The upgraded injector is dual cone - one for each valve - with some tilt (gamma? angle in Bosch terms) that angles the spray away from the runner wall and toward the base of the valve stems.  The geometry probably isn't perfect, but is almost certainly better than OEM. Still leaves me with the same issue... a need to adjust for a change n the spray pattern.

So, how many of you have permanently disabled DFCO?  I mean I know I didn't buy a Porsche Turbo for the freaking gas mileage.  Wink
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jpurban
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My remaining tip-in (idle to off-idle) stuttering, which is really lean-out, appears to be mostly driven by the transient correction described in ESUK. 

My stock WFRL had much too low of a gradient at idle, so the total correction was too low.  That explained the "dull" tip-in performance -- I was always leaning out, even with the stock injectors.  Per the FR, idle gradient is supposed to be about 1/3rd of WOT gradient.  Making this change provided some improvement.  Now I'm struggling with VAKL,BAKL,AVAK,ABAK...  Getting the short vs long splits right is challenging.  Lots of moving parts in the transients...  I can see the value of a controlled dyno environment for transient characterization.  Steady state, like FKKVS, is pretty easy to get sufficiently close with "real world" logging.  Making progress, but it is tedious.

Question...  Porsche disabled the transient adaptation described in ESUKA.  Any idea why they would do that?  What value do you Audi guys have for CUKA?  Disabled = 0.  Fully enabled = 15.  Also, what value do you have for RKUKKLU?  Porsche set it at 100%, but FR suggests 30%.  The Porsche engineers probably had good reasons for deviating from the recommended values, but reverse engineering their logic is not intuitive whatsoever.

I set CUKA to 15 and made sure the parameters in ESUKA were set to the recommended values.  Seemed to smooth things out at cruise RPMs, but not at idle tip-in.  I had the lower RPM limit set above idle.  So, I didn't expect it to help.  I'll lower the limit and try again tomorrow. 
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