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jibberjive
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« on: December 18, 2011, 03:51:00 PM »
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If you were developing a nitrous kit for our car, with the considerations that it would be for the general masses, from K03 cars to GT cars, and had to have a built-in safety factor, what AFR would you have the nitrous jets give for the kit, 11:1 AFR? This would be independent of the car's tune , I'm just talking about the AFR achieved from the nitrous and fuel jetting on the nozzle. It would obviously have to leave some efficiency on the table for safety. I've already got my ideas, just want to see what the general tuning community feels.
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amd is the best
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« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2011, 01:47:54 PM »
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From what I understand, and always tuned for on nitrous applications (boost or N/A) was to just maintain the desired AFR originally intended. So, if your car is tuned for 11.6-11.8 on boost only, you'd want to stay close to that figure while spraying by tuning the fuel jet. Start rich of course. This seems to be the rule of thumb for shots under 300 (from what I read).
Timing on the other hand has to be dealt with depending on the size of the shot. I ran a 55 shot in my S4 with no modifications to the ECU at all (APR Stage 3) on the pump gas map for months without an issue. Most nitrous kits will advise 4* of timing retard for a 75shot though.
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2012 Golf TDI
2001 Audi A4 2.8 30v Supercharged
1991 Audi 200 20v
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jibberjive
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« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2011, 02:25:39 PM »
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Start rich of course. Thanks for the reply. This is what the thread is about, put yourself in the shoes of someone making a nitrous kit for mass consumption on B5 S4's (not necessarily fine tuning it for your own car), how rich would you set up the jetting for a good starting point for joe schmo who may never have a wideband? Tuner's for our cars generally shoot between 111-12-ish AFR on the car's tune. It's more of an opinion thing that I'm asking. And I did some reading on your car and your thread(s) about nitrous last night ha. For example, I wouldn't be surprised if the AFR on your ZEX kit's stock jetting was even less than 11:1 (but I really don't know). |
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« Last Edit: December 19, 2011, 02:27:28 PM by jibberjive »
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amd is the best
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« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2011, 02:36:49 PM »
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No problem. I really am not sure what the actual AFR's were as on my car I never installed a windeband to go along with the nitrous system. I followed ZEX's recommended jet sizing for a V6 engine and, well it didn't blow up. lol. NOT ideal, but worked.
Like you mentioned, it's possible that it was too rich which may not be a bad thing if you're trying to come up with a kit for the "masses" however there'd still be power to be had with a lesser fuel jet (granted it is too rich). That could be left to the individual IMO. If they want to push their car to the limit, they could install a wideband and lean out the fuel jet accordingly.
I'd say, to be safe 11.4-11.6 would be safe enough but then again, who knows what this customers tune looks like. If they are really lean to start, could end up bad. Or if it's overly rich to start, it'll be way to rich. If you're trying to come up with a kit to sell to people, thats a tricky situation lol. Sorry, I am of not much help here. If I still had my kit installed I'd put a wideband on it and give you the results but filling the bottle got way to expensive!
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2012 Golf TDI
2001 Audi A4 2.8 30v Supercharged
1991 Audi 200 20v
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zillarob
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« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2011, 11:11:15 PM »
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Kinda surprises me there isnt a nos/meth kit, maybe I havent looked hard enough. Seems the two would compliment each other and not require much tuning if sized right. The control/safety hardware should be similar also.
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judeisnotobscure
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« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2011, 02:48:50 PM »
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I think you are on the right track with afr... i'd say between 11.1 and 11.5 but the timing worries me more. n20 will speed up the burn and call for timing retard off the current timing, and depending on the size of the shot will need to be retuned.
your kit will include a window switch?
have you thought about a plug and play harness?
i'm assuming it will be throttle position activated.... I'm interested to see what you come up with.
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I have a b5 s4
but i just want to dance.
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jibberjive
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« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2011, 03:36:52 PM »
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I'll have a tutorial prepared to show completely ignorant people how to back the timing off globally on their tunes with lemmiwinks, and I'll recommend 1.5-2 degrees of timing retard per 50hp. I'm going to be making two kits, one will be a bare-bones kit for the cheap people who will be trying to compare it to the random half-complete 'universal' kits out there (that don't come with all the hardware one should really run), and the other kit will be a complete one with all safety precautions addressed. The cheaper one will just have a universal full throttle switch that you physically mount behind the gas pedal, and the complete kit will have a full progressive controller, with electronic TPS activation RPM window, etc, and I'm looking into ways to get the wiring done cleanly, potentially with a harness. Any resources you'd recommend checking out to figure out how to make a clean harness to tap into the stock wiring for RPM and TPS signals?
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jibberjive
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« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2011, 01:54:10 AM »
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Thanks, yeah that's a good link (I've actually had it bookmarked for a bit). I am trying to think of a way to build a harness with connectors that will be able to just be plugged in somewhere, rather than splice/tap, but with the way the OEM connectors are, that's probably not likely.
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amd is the best
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« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2011, 02:52:59 AM »
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Finding the female ends would be fairly easy however the male ends (IE the throttle body) may be tricky. I like the idea though. My setup was the switch under the petal because I didn't want to splice into my harness.
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2012 Golf TDI
2001 Audi A4 2.8 30v Supercharged
1991 Audi 200 20v
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jibberjive
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« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2011, 01:44:06 PM »
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Do you have any pics of the switch install by chance?
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marcello7x
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« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2011, 06:34:55 AM »
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Kinda surprises me there isnt a nos/meth kit, maybe I havent looked hard enough. Seems the two would compliment each other and not require much tuning if sized right. The control/safety hardware should be similar also.
I believe its been done, but you have to look at the american muscle type applications. Found this in wikipedia " Mud racers have mixed methanol with gasoline and nitrous oxide to produce more power than gasoline and nitrous oxide alone." |
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marcello7x
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« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2011, 06:36:38 AM »
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Kinda surprises me there isnt a nos/meth kit, maybe I havent looked hard enough. Seems the two would compliment each other and not require much tuning if sized right. The control/safety hardware should be similar also.
I believe its been done, but you have to look at the american muscle type applications. I looked into it when putting together the beginning of my nitrous kit for my hotrod. I decided it was going to be too much power to make a difference[500+rwhp + 150 shot, in a sub 2700lb car]Found this in wikipedia " Mud racers have mixed methanol with gasoline and nitrous oxide to produce more power than gasoline and nitrous oxide alone." |
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amd is the best
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« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2012, 07:06:40 PM »
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Do you have any pics of the switch install by chance?
The switch is still in my car. I'll grab a pic asap. |
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2012 Golf TDI
2001 Audi A4 2.8 30v Supercharged
1991 Audi 200 20v
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