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Author Topic: 1.8T 032DR Load & Timing Changes  (Read 12219 times)
prj
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« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2018, 05:25:44 PM »

I worded that poorly.

I'm thinking if you no longer make any more power at a given advance/load, the load will start to increase and IDC will increase with it. 

Theorycraft is great, practice is something else.
A slight change in headwind will make more difference than the timing.

Tuning the part-throttle timing to MBT is only doable on a dyno with an emulator (or some other means to offset the ignition angle in real time).
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adam-
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« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2018, 12:30:38 AM »

I know, I thought it would just be theorycraft.  Obviously most of us don't have that luxury, I was just trying to think outside the box.

Thanks! Smiley
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ibizaCUPRA18t
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« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2018, 01:32:54 PM »

Adding timing in whole range like that shows that you have no idea what you are doing.
The only way to modify timing in non-knock limited area is on a dyno. Stick to changing only timing at the higher load cells, extend the map above 150 load.

How does it show that though? I am using common sense and common knowledge and only increasing by small increments to get some more low down torque and maybe more economy while cruising? I went from 0.25 increases at low load low rpm  to max 0.75 at high rpm. Shoulnt make a big different and imo its safe right?
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nyet
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« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2018, 03:14:12 PM »

How does it show that though? I am using common sense and common knowledge and only increasing by small increments to get some more low down torque and maybe more economy while cruising? I went from 0.25 increases at low load low rpm  to max 0.75 at high rpm. Shoulnt make a big different and imo its safe right?

No. More timing does not automatically mean more power or better fuel economy. You want better economy, use less throttle.

In any case, how will you know without a dyno?

And you ignored prj's comment about headwind.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 03:16:00 PM by nyet » Logged

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prj
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« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2018, 03:04:33 AM »

How does it show that though? I am using common sense and common knowledge and only increasing by small increments to get some more low down torque and maybe more economy while cruising? I went from 0.25 increases at low load low rpm  to max 0.75 at high rpm. Shoulnt make a big different and imo its safe right?
"common sense and knowledge" which you have none of.
Do yourself a favor, pick up a book about the inner workings of internal combustion engines and read about timing and MBT, then you will understand how goddamn ridiculous "only increasing by small increments to get some more low down torque and maybe more economy while cruising?" sounds.

All non knock-limited area is already tuned to MBT from factory on an engine dyno. Adding timing will lose torque and fuel economy.
The only time you need to modify timing is when the compression ratio has changed, and then you need a dyno to get anywhere. Automatically adding timing everywhere will once again make it worse.

The sad thing is that most of the so called "tuners" have no idea about this. MORE to every map is better right? It must be better? And if not too much it must be safe right?
NO, it's not better and your tune is shit when it's done with that reasoning. Simple as.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 03:07:36 AM by prj » Logged

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ibizaCUPRA18t
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« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2018, 03:55:42 AM »

"common sense and knowledge" which you have none of.
Do yourself a favor, pick up a book about the inner workings of internal combustion engines and read about timing and MBT, then you will understand how goddamn ridiculous "only increasing by small increments to get some more low down torque and maybe more economy while cruising?" sounds.

All non knock-limited area is already tuned to MBT from factory on an engine dyno. Adding timing will lose torque and fuel economy.
The only time you need to modify timing is when the compression ratio has changed, and then you need a dyno to get anywhere. Automatically adding timing everywhere will once again make it worse.

The sad thing is that most of the so called "tuners" have no idea about this. MORE to every map is better right? It must be better? And if not too much it must be safe right?
NO, it's not better and your tune is shit when it's done with that reasoning. Simple as.

Okay... well you don't have to get that salty though. I want to try this as a hobby for my car, so be more polite when talking to someone that is wrong.

So you're saying adding timing makes no difference in most occasions? I really haven't seen someone say that before. I guess I was wrong with low load changes. But ur wrong when u say u cant edit timing without a dyno, yes you can, trial and error and safe changes. And btw whats wrong with "pros" telling "noobs" to "go read a book about internal combustion engines" even if they make the smallest mistakes lol. Doing that is just arrogant and cocky. Anyway i dont wanna spark drama, I just wanted other peoples advice and not to be attacked...
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prj
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« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2018, 05:30:10 AM »

But ur wrong when u say u cant edit timing without a dyno, yes you can, trial and error and safe changes

This is your problem.
You are pointed out your mistake, and you continue spouting your bullshit.
Re-read what I wrote. You don't even know what non-knock limited is or what MBT is.
What kind of trial and error are you talking about in non-knock limited area? What is your "error"? How do you know you made something better? Worse? You don't. The only way to know is instantaneous torque readout on dyno. End of story.
Knock limited area is different story, of course you don't need dyno to tune that - as I said already.

I am as polite or impolite as I want to be. I usually have a pretty low tolerance to bullshit and point it out when I see it, and you very much deserve it.
There is a very big difference between people who don't know anything, but are willing to learn, and between people like you, who don't know anything but think they always know better.

Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall - you have zero knowledge about tuning, you have zero argumentation, but you repeat some regurgitated crap over and over again without understanding what you are saying.
Stop screwing with your ECU, take a book about internal combustion engines READ IT, so you understand how the very basic principles of the engine work, such as what ignition timing does how it affects ignition efficiency, what flame speed is, how it relates to mixture, how mixture affects temperature, how timing affects temperature and so on.
You have NO idea about any of this, yet you are screwing around with digital engine control. This is not a computer game, it is a complex apparatus that produces explosions at a rate of 10000 every minute at 5000 rpm, and you have no understanding at all of it, yet you are trying to poke it. You are not going to get any better of it by reading forums or this forum. This forum is about engine control. To modify engine control you need to know WHY it even exists in the first place and what it does and WHY. You know, a foundation to build on.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 05:38:33 AM by prj » Logged

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ibizaCUPRA18t
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« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2018, 11:05:45 AM »

This is your problem.
You are pointed out your mistake, and you continue spouting your bullshit.
Re-read what I wrote. You don't even know what non-knock limited is or what MBT is.
What kind of trial and error are you talking about in non-knock limited area? What is your "error"? How do you know you made something better? Worse? You don't. The only way to know is instantaneous torque readout on dyno. End of story.
Knock limited area is different story, of course you don't need dyno to tune that - as I said already.

I am as polite or impolite as I want to be. I usually have a pretty low tolerance to bullshit and point it out when I see it, and you very much deserve it.
There is a very big difference between people who don't know anything, but are willing to learn, and between people like you, who don't know anything but think they always know better.

Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall - you have zero knowledge about tuning, you have zero argumentation, but you repeat some regurgitated crap over and over again without understanding what you are saying.
Stop screwing with your ECU, take a book about internal combustion engines READ IT, so you understand how the very basic principles of the engine work, such as what ignition timing does how it affects ignition efficiency, what flame speed is, how it relates to mixture, how mixture affects temperature, how timing affects temperature and so on.
You have NO idea about any of this, yet you are screwing around with digital engine control. This is not a computer game, it is a complex apparatus that produces explosions at a rate of 10000 every minute at 5000 rpm, and you have no understanding at all of it, yet you are trying to poke it. You are not going to get any better of it by reading forums or this forum. This forum is about engine control. To modify engine control you need to know WHY it even exists in the first place and what it does and WHY. You know, a foundation to build on.

I didn't say i don't want to learn. I admit I am new to the software tuning. But you cant tell me to read about how ICEs work. I have read multiple times and have all the knowledge I need. The problem with you is you try to relate "books about internal combustion engines" directly to other peoples problems... they obviously don't teach you about knock limited or non knock limited area nor do they teach you if you can tune part throttle without a dyno or not. So just be more explainable when you talk instead of jumping at people like that. I understand what youre saying now and it does make sense. Thank you.
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ibizaCUPRA18t
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« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2018, 11:09:37 AM »

@prj

I have a question, why does the Timing 2 (VVT) have such higher timing values? They are increased by 2 or even 3 degrees. How does it work that way? Due to the changes in valve operation?
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prj
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« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2018, 02:13:53 PM »

Because during overlap the dynamic compression of the cylinder charge is somewhat lower compared to the volume of air ingested.
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