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Author Topic: Opinions: using KFLBTS vs LAMFA for fuel all the time?  (Read 384167 times)
s5fourdoor
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« Reply #315 on: April 09, 2012, 10:36:50 AM »

wait what are we talking about now???

i currently us Lamfa, bts, krl in conjunction.  why not use all when we can?

All fueling maps of this combination on the same post [screenshot for posterity]?

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jibberjive
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« Reply #316 on: April 09, 2012, 10:44:23 AM »

Is this what you are looking for?
Holy cow, that took someone a lot of time/effort.  Would be interesting to potentially add in the current options (different Garrett's, Tials, ER IC's).
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Gonzo
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« Reply #317 on: April 09, 2012, 11:01:56 AM »

Use LAMFA for desired fueling and use KFLBTS as a 'net'.
KFLBTS is a savior when you are running BT's.

KFLBTS = component protection, and that's how you should use it.
Some tuners disable it for stock turbo tunes, but I wouldn't. It only comes on when EGT's go over certain threshold so there's no need to disable it. You should leave it on as a safety feature.
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TTQS
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« Reply #318 on: April 09, 2012, 02:22:21 PM »

Holy cow, that took someone a lot of time/effort.

Indeed. A very interesting piece of work. I actually thought it was modeling an ME7 ECU, i.e. someone had built all the key maps, characteristics and constants and then was feeding them with the various inputs required to produce output curves for torque, etc. That would be something, i.e. a desktop model of a Motronic variant.

TTQS
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Snow Trooper
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« Reply #319 on: April 09, 2012, 02:46:49 PM »

All fueling maps of this combination on the same post [screenshot for posterity]?



Of course, hadn't been on my laptop...

This strategy is for 91 oct, keep in mind this is on a car with a vertical FMIC, no fans, at 6000 feet ambient and often being driven/tested very hard at 7500 plus feet (about 10,200 max) and 7500 rpm at 22-29 psi.  My biggest issue up here is the deformation of boost hoses at high AITs for long duration after heat soaking the car while sitting, i consider this fueling conservative.  For race gas you can run way less fuel, with meth injection you don't need to think about afrs ever really in regards to the tune, just hoses prey meth nozzle.  With nitrous you don't need to worry about afrs just fuel.  This is a daily driver who knows what I might get for fuel and no frills or power adders/helps sort of system that works extremely well.  With even something like c16 this would still be a monster file as you wouldn't see knock.  i have tested this with q16 and e85 but run out of fuel on the corn, going to re-vist e85 tuning this summer when its easier to buy.  If i ran meth injection I would basically always run a race style strategy.
____________________________________________________________________________

I try and dump a little fuel on hammer down with the lamfa, nothing much, we are talking race gas short run afrs here just to start the process of cooling the charge before boost starts ramping the line pressures.  On my BT car if I punch it bellow boost threshold it does indeed just dump useless fuel but not enough to stop building tq/boost.  just punishes me a little for driving lazy.  Above boost threshold its dumping it down to optimal tq afr before krl or bts can have a say as it is able to jump immediately back into boost.

On boost krl is being used with tonys kr map, it is pretty broad and works well with basically any setup since load is load.  I have krl running high 11s in the 0 row for no knock and this has been fantastic, this is the theoretical peak power afr for a 2.7t under boost.  I quickly drop through the range and settle at 8 cfs to 11.1 afr which is where the flame front and tq are all but dropping away and this stops detonation.  Since setting this up my car has never logged more than 8-9 cf and only for a short duration, it always recovers very quickly and gets out of det and just rides the line pulling hard and clean with minimal knock that cannot be avoided with 91 but settling in around 3-4 cfs and a nice powerful afr.

Then for when I just cant seem to run out of road which is sort of rare or i am abusing the car with brake boosting and the like I have BTS coming on late (assuming my/your maf stuff and calc ect/load is right, if it is scaled low you will not have the safety net at all especially with no real egts, too high and it defeats the purpose and robs power) to cool it all down, sort of like the egt trigger.  I have no cats and high end components/turbo/manifold so I let it get hot.  It dumps the afr below the usable flame speed range and just wastes fuel for the sole purpose of shutting down power without literally shutting down the engine like with other interventions like throttle cut.  I max my normal fuel system around 7.5:1 afr so there is decent head room here for me.

whew... long but hopefully helpful, bold and italics are meant to be helpful for points to focus on and not to seem pretentious.  Grin  Adapting any of these or all of them to another car is really easy, just base it all off your boost profile, hot side components like cats and your fuel / fuel system.

here ya go:
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jibberjive
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« Reply #320 on: April 09, 2012, 02:55:17 PM »

Love the picture name ha.  So, after this screenshot, did you then convert all of those values to lambda for the ECU?
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Snow Trooper
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« Reply #321 on: April 09, 2012, 03:07:51 PM »

nope, its all in the conversion factor you use.  i prefer to visualize afr numbers in my head and not lambda because when i think lambda i think volts.

hint- look at the different bts maps in the common xdf, one is afr one if lamda, same parameter, different way to display it, the conversion factors to display each apply to other fuel related maps.  if you dont like trying to tune lambda numbers just tune with afr by editing your xdf. Wink
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marcellus
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« Reply #322 on: April 09, 2012, 05:23:41 PM »

nope, its all in the conversion factor you use.  i prefer to visualize afr numbers in my head and not lambda because when i think lambda i think volts.

hint- look at the different bts maps in the common xdf, one is afr one if lamda, same parameter, different way to display it, the conversion factors to display each apply to other fuel related maps.  if you dont like trying to tune lambda numbers just tune with afr by editing your xdf. Wink

NOOB ?  What did you do to the XDF to get it to convert to AFR instead of Lambda?
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jibberjive
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« Reply #323 on: April 09, 2012, 06:11:28 PM »

nope, its all in the conversion factor you use.  i prefer to visualize afr numbers in my head and not lambda because when i think lambda i think volts.

hint- look at the different bts maps in the common xdf, one is afr one if lamda, same parameter, different way to display it, the conversion factors to display each apply to other fuel related maps.  if you dont like trying to tune lambda numbers just tune with afr by editing your xdf. Wink
Yeah, I'm retarded and should've caught on that you just changed the xdf multiplier.  Cool idea that I might follow, cause, like you, .81 and whatnot is nowhere near as intuitive for me as AFR numbers.  I've just been trying to force myself to make lamda second nature ha.

NOOB ?  What did you do to the XDF to get it to convert to AFR instead of Lambda?
Just right click the parameter inside of TunerPro and click edit XDF parameter.  On the last tab IIRC is where you can edit the conversion factors for what all of the data shows. Just add a *14.7 at the end.
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Snow Trooper
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« Reply #324 on: April 09, 2012, 06:56:16 PM »

in general, for fuel maps that display Lambda values a conversion of 0.007813 * X will be used, by changing it to 0.114844 * X it will display AFR
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marcellus
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« Reply #325 on: April 10, 2012, 08:29:34 AM »

thanks!
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rob.mwpropane
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« Reply #326 on: April 10, 2012, 07:39:52 PM »

in general, for fuel maps that display Lambda values a conversion of 0.007813 * X will be used, by changing it to 0.114844 * X it will display AFR

I too am retarded, err... handicapped. I've been thinking of doing this for a while, but since everybody talks about lambda, I was trying to get used to it. Man, that makes life so much easier. This whole time I've been converting it in my head. Roll Eyes
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julex
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« Reply #327 on: April 11, 2012, 07:52:09 AM »

instead of for example "0.007813" use "1/128" in tuner pro. It will give more accurate value without any rounding.

There are other values used in XDFs that are approximations, you can easily tell when you divide "1" by that value and get something very close to one of 2^x numbers. For exmaple, 1/0.007813 = 127.9918085242544. It is obvious that they are really using 2^7 divider here (easy on ECU, doesn't have to waste time doing complex calculations).

You'll find quite a few of these in use. 1/512, 1/32768 etc.

Also make sure the tables display values with as much precision as you can fit in a cell.

Why this is important? TunerPro will round up/down for you when you copy paste stuff without you knowing if you don't have enough precision forced on the table.

Had this happen to me on numerous occasions.
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jibberjive
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« Reply #328 on: April 11, 2012, 09:50:53 AM »

True, the rounding thing especially on maps that are all around 1 or less with like 5 sig figs. If you copy/paste not in hex display mode, it's likely more than half of the table got rounded to the wrong value.
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julex
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« Reply #329 on: April 12, 2012, 07:23:48 AM »

Ok, run the full tank of crap fuel down to vapors, fueled with quality gas this time and my engine is back to tip-top shape. To recap:

Got a tank of "93" that was anything but:
- heavy CFs in -9.0 range with KR fueling pumping 10.3 AFR out
- large +4 +5% corrections to fueling  - makes me think that there was something in the gas that had much lower stoich than gas but not octane benefit?

Re-fueled with legit "93" and:
- CFs hitting -4.5 max with fueling riding at 11.6
- LTFTs back to -+0.5% max across all trims.

Lesson: You never know what you're going to get in your gas. I got something really, really bad. Since my CFs were so bad at 10.3AFR + Meth injection on, it makes me think that traditional fueling would run into serious problems without additional KR fueling kicking in. Imagine the same situation with car tuned to 11.6 flat, it would no doubt hit -12 CFs.
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