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Author Topic: Planning to convert a non turbo 1.8 to turbo - Some questions/help needed  (Read 33812 times)
Blazius
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« Reply #45 on: November 03, 2018, 06:19:07 AM »

So swap the valve coverage the problem? I use 2l 8v bottom ends all the time with 20v heads. I'd bet a 20v na would be very close to the na 20v. Also you'd be best off using the short runner intake from the turboed car and vent the valve cover to help expel positive crank vent once turboed.

Yeah, i See im taking off the head right now, just resting a bit, pics coming when im finished P
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Blazius
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« Reply #46 on: November 03, 2018, 09:27:00 AM »

Yeah, i See im taking off the head right now, just resting a bit, pics coming when im finished P

Well... I could not finish the job today, gets dark at like 4:50 PM .. and this shiet is a PITA, the PCV system, Intake manifold is jammed up AF the back, old hoses etc.
Anyway all that is left is exhaust manfifold then It is free, but for now check out the valves from intake .. Honestly. these dont look that bad, they are all on the same level.


Cylinder 1 -

Cylinder 2 -

Cylinder 3 -

Need a new head anyway so it literally does not matter if the valves are good or nah, because the intake cam is fucked.

Also found this little guy wedged into the secondary fan Cheesy





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mdz
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« Reply #47 on: November 03, 2018, 03:52:09 PM »

I dont believe they are the same, i know that turbo VC has a vacuum ,  that port is blocked off on the NA one , second the coil on NA are different so holes dont match , and 3rd that i know is that turbo block has extra holes for water cooling the turbo as an oil feed, correct me if im wrong.
Turbo and n/a valve covers are almost the same. You can modify plug holes for 3rd and 4th cyl with some grinding tool to fit the coils. Early turbo covers didn't had a ventilation. Only 06A covers had ventilation from factory.
Hole in the block for coolant can be drilled easily, there's a place for it already and iron is soft metal, drills like butter. Oil sump doesn't have oil return hole, but mine had template for it - i just had to tap 2 threads and finish drill a hole in casting.
Regarding N/A cams being better - you might get some power increase up top with large sized turbo, but on small turbos it can make things even worse. I had n/a exhaust cam for a while, lost some low down power and K03 is out of breath where the gain could be so I swapped it back.
If you have any questions about n/a -> turbo parts compatibility, ask here, I can help with that.  Wink
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Blazius
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« Reply #48 on: November 03, 2018, 04:23:55 PM »

...

My bad , actually realised that the holes are the same patttern as on the standalone 1.8t coils, so that leaves the VC , but i guess i could just use my current one on the turbo head , lol, about water holes, what I mean afaik the turbo block or head has holes for the ko3 turbo, now i DONT need those holes , as this ebay t3t4 turbo is oil cooled only, about oil pan, I guess i would just weld a bung and done, and run the oil feed from pressure sending unit, that is the standart way, now that is when I get it turboed which wont be this year.
Now my main dilemma is , you guys are saying I should get a turbo block which are like 33% more expensive, but I am only gonna use the head from it HOPEFULLY, depending how the lower end is when i take off the head.
Now second IF I only replace head from turbo block, how would the cams and valves work with NA?
About pistons being forged in turbo, i found out OEM codes for NA pistons and wrote to MAHLE for differences between the 2 pistons apart from C:R.
Now the reason the reason I am thinking(and hopefully) to replace head only is because if I want to up the boost or go for big HP then obviously i would replace pistona/conrods, but for now 8psi from .50ar shouldnt be that much, still have to do correct math on it. Or if i dont wanna shell out 600 euros on forged aftermarket pistons , MAHLE turbo pistons i can buy for 85 usdish new /per.
 Smiley

EDIT: Everything is done except taking the head off... its a 058 block with polydrive bolts.. I thought they were supposed to be triplesquare 12 pt , but nope.. So now I have to buy some polydrive bits from the city.. Meh.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2018, 09:22:55 PM by Blazius » Logged
Blazius
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« Reply #49 on: November 05, 2018, 04:03:21 AM »

So I just got an answer back from MAHLE about piston questions I asked earlier.

Hello Mr. blazius,

" The piston for the engine ARG is 033 13 00 and it is a casting piston.

The piston 033 04 00 is a forged piston and cannot be used for the engine ARG. "

Well , that clears it up but second part is bullcrap, its same bore , 20mm wrist pin, why wouldnt you be able to use it in an NA block ?
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Blazius
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« Reply #50 on: November 05, 2018, 12:00:30 PM »

Another day gone.. So apparently there is not one shop where you can buy ribe/polydrive bits lol, so I ordered one from Bulgaria (lol) , but I'm gonna attempt to take them out with T50 Torx, I know some people said you CAN take them out but not put them back in , but I still dont feel it, how safe is it considered to remove them with Torx ?

I am tired of waiting so I can finally decide if I am getting a turbo block or not, the main issue is the price, if I dont need a turbo block ( because if I am going for high power, I will be replacing the bottom end anyway) then I wont get one, also I am still not sure how would the turbo cams perform in non turbo , and yeah the price : I can have an ADR or an ARG for 122 usd~ to 170 usd , so with timing belt + waterpump + gaskets would end up around 350 usd ish.

Now a turbo block is min 244 usd, or 318 usd for one with 170K km, and that would cost me around 450 usdish min, is it worth ?
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« Reply #51 on: November 06, 2018, 03:33:07 AM »

8mm allen works good
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mdz
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« Reply #52 on: November 06, 2018, 04:03:09 AM »

One of n/a ADR engines I opened up had “double hex” (don’t know right name in english) head bolts instead of polydrive.
Be sure you get long enough polydrive tool, mine’s bit too short so I must remove front cam cap to reach the bolts.
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« Reply #53 on: November 06, 2018, 04:30:58 AM »

Triple square
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Blazius
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« Reply #54 on: November 06, 2018, 06:57:15 AM »

8mm allen works good

Cheers for that I took them off , pics at bottom.
One of n/a ADR engines I opened up had “double hex” (don’t know right name in english) head bolts instead of polydrive.
Be sure you get long enough polydrive tool, mine’s bit too short so I must remove front cam cap to reach the bolts.

Yeah. It is supposed to be triple square yes, as old 058 should be but this engine is kinda like a hybrid 06A- DBW, polydrive bolts ,who knows what else, but I took them off with 8mm hex, but also yeah I ordered a polydrive tool. Check out pics at bottom.


So I took the head off today finally , pics attached. There is one valve definitly bent, you can also see it a lil bit on the piston, and cylinder 4 exhast valve juuuuust clipped it a bit, I feel like I'm quite lucky.

Another thing I am wondering is why are the cylinders so clean, except for the last one ? Any insight?

Anyway, judge it and tell me what's the play here bosses Cheesy , Cheers Tongue


https://imgur.com/a/km9Adx6 - album link, multiple pics
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_nameless
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« Reply #55 on: November 06, 2018, 08:04:09 AM »

Do yourself a favor and use a head gasket with a thicker spacer so you drop compression a tad. Flat top pistons in that thing means your compression is north of 10:1. Turboed 1.8 20v are around 9.25:1 Stock
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Blazius
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« Reply #56 on: November 06, 2018, 08:52:42 AM »

Do yourself a favor and use a head gasket with a thicker spacer so you drop compression a tad. Flat top pistons in that thing means your compression is north of 10:1. Turboed 1.8 20v are around 9.25:1 Stock

Allright, will try but for that I would have to know the original mm , and find a manufacturer that list the thickness, I thought turbo comp was around 9,5:1 ish , but for NA its 10.3ish.

As for the engine , what is next ? As you can see the 1 intake valve is bent, scratched the piston I can barely feel it with my nails, 2 of cylinder 4 exhaust valves are just a dat chipped aswell as the piston ( cant feel with nails) , the intake cam lobe is a bit fucked , aswell as lifter1 ,2 for cylinder 3 is stuck right now because of screw, but they dont seem to be damage , so a light tap should free them .
Should I buy 1 intake valve ,headgasket and timing and water p. or new engine use the head, clean it up etc. + timing , hg, pump , or replace the whole engine If I get a new engine ?

I am trying to go for the lowest amount of money, but keep in mind if I only do that 1 valve, I will try to boost mildly it like the original plan was , and then later on If I want higher power then I'll 100% upgrade stuff but that is later on .


EDIT: I still dont get why is cylinder 4 so dirty and the rest are cleaner, and also to me it looks like there is a bigger gap on exhaust side of bore than on the rest, what I failed to mention probably is that the engine was boiled once accidentaly , but It was fine, cleaned up etc. but that is probably why that screw came loose and fucked the whole engine, what do you think ?

PS: Buy Gates powerGrip timing belt Smiley)), I still cant believe it tore the cam sprocket off and the timing belt didnt break with 72k KM on it.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 08:56:57 AM by Blazius » Logged
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« Reply #57 on: November 07, 2018, 05:09:04 AM »

The bolt broke and the keyway sheared. The belt wouldn't break because of that. I'd the head locked up and didn't turn that would rip the belt. 10.3:1 is really high for pump fuel and turbo so I'd still consider a thicker head gasket. Anything you can feel in the piston you'll wanna clean up with some really fine sand paper to remove the possibility of hot spots. Pull the cams out of the head you have currently and do a gas test. If you can get away with only replacing a few valves that would be your cheapest bet. Gas test is when you dump gas into the runners and see if it leak past the valves. Look on YouTube for a vid if you need
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mdz
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« Reply #58 on: November 07, 2018, 05:18:02 AM »

You can also flip the head upside down with cams removed and pour some coolant in combustion chamber. It will leak past valves if they are not sealed tight.
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Blazius
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« Reply #59 on: November 07, 2018, 05:26:58 AM »

The bolt broke and the keyway sheared. The belt wouldn't break because of that. I'd the head locked up and didn't turn that would rip the belt. 10.3:1 is really high for pump fuel and turbo so I'd still consider a thicker head gasket. Anything you can feel in the piston you'll wanna clean up with some really fine sand paper to remove the possibility of hot spots. Pull the cams out of the head you have currently and do a gas test. If you can get away with only replacing a few valves that would be your cheapest bet. Gas test is when you dump gas into the runners and see if it leak past the valves. Look on YouTube for a vid if you need

Hmm, possible but that does not explain why the bolt came loose and fucked the cam up and lifter nr 3 for cylinder and lifter 1 for cylinder 3 , they are currently stuck in there because the bolt dmgd the casting , so idk how to remove them, everything else is removed, also I am not sure what you mean for pump fuel, I am running 98 octane sport fuel , so it decent , but yeah will get a 1.35mm thick hg, the standart is around 1.25mm i think, will know for sure 2 morrow. Also checked the warpage on head, its okay, but what i noticed that on the block on cyl.4 the gap on exhaust side between piston and wall is much bigger than the rest. Ill put some coolant in combustion chamber and see whatsup.
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