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Author Topic: Porsche Cayenne ME7.1 RE85 half warm start problem  (Read 5086 times)
JTY
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« on: August 28, 2018, 12:38:41 PM »

I converted to RE85 fuel, changed injectors to larger ones (from 410cc -> 650cc)
Have been mapping the software for a while and have found all the important maps.
If anybody have any idea to solve my problem that would be nice.

Problem is with starting the engine at half-warm state.
Cold start works good 7C - 20C, hot start 70-90C works also good if done under 15min
but half warm start engine 35C - 70C is problematic (only if the engine has stayed shut for over 20min).
Very bad start if the engine has been shut for full work day (outside aroun 20C, engine usually 30C).
Works very good when idling, very good partial load and also strong full load.

All these maps has been altered:

Fuel
------
KRKTE
TVUB
TEMIN/TEMINVA
FKSTT   <- Added more fuel to cold side part +100% and hot part only around 20%
KFHSTT  <- This is strange, it's a 6x3 map with engine and intake temperature (enrichment factor 0.75 -> 0.50 with 0.25 increments).
Really no effect, as it's for really hot start
KFWKSTAB
KFWKSTN
KFWKSTT
FNSSM   <- More fuel added (around 30%)

Timing
-----------
KFZW1, 2, 3, 4 around 6degrees more
KFZWMS
KFZWMN
KFZWSTTM <- around 3degrees more for cold start

Idle/Throttle
-----------------
KFNLLNST  <- Did not really help
KFWDKSTT  <- This is the latest that I have changed and it had some affect, still experimenting

« Last Edit: August 28, 2018, 10:16:57 PM by JTY » Logged
woj
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« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2018, 02:29:03 PM »

The problem with E85 that I have experienced during my so far short adventure with it and that I was made aware of around here is that it has lots of non linearity here and there. When looking for cold start enrichments on Google I came across some sites giving me an idea of how much to add and with some experimenting I have arrived at what is in the attachment. In essence, it was much more than I would consider reasonable. This, however, have so far been tested (a) only down to 20C (perhaps not even that low, Spring and Summer were really hot), (b) and not on full E85, the highest blend I had in the tank was E75. I will be testing it more in Fall. Also, I was advised to leave the starting ignition alone.
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JTY
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« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2018, 10:16:10 PM »

Yes E85 has it's own ways Cheesy
I have been playing with E85 for some time already, but first time with porsche V8 ME7.1
Had one Audi TT with 1.8T ME7.1 and running on E85, but that was easy just added +25% trim overall and some more timing  Grin

Here's my FKSTT, I have tried to add 50% more fuel to 40-80C part and lower -50% but no big difference.
When cranking wideband lambda goes straight to AFR 20 and then goes quickly to AFR 10-11, so it seems it's too rich.
Therefore I started to lower the enrichment and open throttle more at start.
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JTY
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« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2018, 10:21:23 PM »

Here's some maps, stock vs tuned.

Injectors where measured before installing as I have an digital injector tester.
I also changed plugs from stock Bosch Platinium to ordinary copper NGK BR7ES plugs (with 0.70mm gap), as copper plugs has
been best for RE85 use.
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woj
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« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2018, 01:41:01 PM »

I will try to keep this topic alive, because as it turns out I have the same exact problem.

With the start-up factor map posted earlier, the car starts (my econtent is at 61% at the moment) nicely when warm, 70C+, when cold too (I mean I had one very nice attempt at 15C). When at around 25-35C, no matter if just standing there for long time, or after couple of hours of engine cool down, it starts like crap, I mean RPMs climb up to 1300, then drop down to very low, then it oscillates for 3 seconds and then stabilises. Sometimes dies after the first dip. Cannot state with confidence what AFRs are, because the sensor is not always warmed up, and regardless, Zt-2 reboots / goes silent for long enough during cranking anyhow. I tried raising the FKSTT map, no visible improvement, if anything, it is worse.

One thing I did notice in the maps -  KFWKSTT has a visible less steep drop in the factor for the 20-40C range, see the attachment.

EDIT: As the car was sitting there with more or less precisely 30C of coolant temperature, I tried the richer map again, failed to start three times in a row. When the AFR came to, it showed ~13.5 in a non running engine, which suggests overfueling to me. So on the next attempt I brought down FKSTT down from 20C upwards and I got a reasonable start (with hesitation, but not a visible rpm dip). But because of the previous attempts just before, this is not yet conclusive.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 02:17:17 PM by woj » Logged
woj
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« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2018, 02:10:58 PM »

So I have been playing a bit more with ethanol startup on my engine. I currently run 73% mix and it won't be higher anytime soon, it seems that they sell the winter mix here now. Things will be different for your engine for sure, so this is just for guidance. Overall, I was considerably overfueling it above 20 deg. C. So far temperatures were not below 13 deg. C here and I was able to dial in the startup only down to this temperature using only FKSTT and ZWST. For ZWST I added 2.25 degrees flat, but with reference to 85% mix, so effectively it is probably 1.5 degrees for 73%. I am not sure that is strictly needed, but it works sweet so I leave it as is. For fuel, I multiplied the FKSTT with 1.03 at 40 deg., 1.13 at 30 deg, 1.53 at 20 deg, and 2.92 at 10 deg. Again, all that with reference to E85, so for 73% a bit less. After reading about physical characteristics of ethanol a bit, this is not surprising. I presume that for lower temps I'd have to go to KFWKSTT, more increase in ZWST and NLLMG.

In any case, one other thing I noticed (though looking inside the ECU code I cannot find the guilty one, I should dive into FR perhaps) is that the ECU freaks out with start up throttle control after flashing, it takes about 2 days before everything settles in. Long story short, verifying startup right after flashing new tables never worked for me, specifically around the half warm region.
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JTY
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« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2018, 11:22:14 PM »

I have also tried with richer and leaner FKSTT but really no big difference.
It starts very good even at 7C degrees, but when it goes over 25C degreees the start is very poor.
Ethanol content is now 79% with our RE85 from several stations.

I noticed that playing with throttle start angle KFWDKSTT helped the most on warm start but seems that the ECU
really does not open the thorttle right away (looking at log), it takes some time. So there must be some other map that
adjust the throttle angle when shutting down.

This week I have been playing with TVUB to get STFT/LTFT better, as the low load cruise speed trim and idle trim was almost +15-20%
Now I have got it down to around 5%. This made warm start worse, also cold start is not anymore so good as it was before.

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JTY
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« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2018, 11:35:44 PM »

Here's latest "tune" Cheesy
Started pretty decent at 7C degrees (first try, RPM little low but when secondary air pumps started the RPM rised quickly to 1400RPM as it should)
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woj
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« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2018, 11:55:19 PM »

No KFWDKSTT on my ECU, at least not in the reference definition. From what I can tell from logs, the whole throttle operation is torque based from the very start in my case (again, just a visual claim). What I know for sure is that for the first 3 seconds after start (500 rpm crossed) the throttle PID has much more aggressive setting, together with a badly tuned fuel this was a problem for me, it was killing the throttle too much on the first RPM spike and unable to recover from that. And I suspect (see note above) that this PID operation has some adaptation parameters. These are, I guess again, unfortunately RAM rather than EEPROM based, so each RAM reset causes a problem. I am in progress of verifying all this and getting to know for sure, just too little time.
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JTY
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« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2018, 09:52:23 PM »

Today was first frost morning -0.8C degrees and the car started with first touch of the key Cheesy
So cold start is not a problem, seems to work really good now.
Half-warm is still major problem, hot start works pretty good.
I will post latest setting later.

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