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Author Topic: Am I adjusting TVUB correctly?  (Read 31561 times)
PovGRide742
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« on: February 08, 2012, 06:46:27 PM »

Hello everyone,

I've been tuning my injectors (Bosch EV14 52lb) to my car the past few days, and today did my first adjustment to TVUB since calculating it by interpolation.

I'm gonna use whole numbers in this example... these are not the values I'm actually using, just makes it easier to explain. I'm going by Tony's method described in his quote:
Just to let everyone know what I have been doing. My S4 has K04 turbos, Siemens 630cc injectors, stock MAF. I started with a stock tune that had the fuel injector scale corrected for the larger injectors. I then did numerous 10 to 20 minute test drives giving the car time to learn the response of the new fuel injectors. During the drive I would try to have idle, part load, and WOT, and multiple types of driving types. After each test drive I would read the long term idle fuel trim and the long term partial load fuel trim. Using those trim numbers I would adjust the fuel injector scaling and fuel injector latency map.

The long term partial load fuel trim is a percentage correction of the reference load for fuel injection. So if the long term partial load fuel trim is 5%, that means the car is scaling up the load by 5% to make the car run richer. The fuel injector scale is in (ms injection time / % load). So to adjust for the car needing to add 5% fuel to run at the correct AFR, I would then scale up the fuel injector scale by 5%.

The long term idle fuel trim is also a percentage correction of the reference load for fuel injection. So if it is -1% that means that the car wants 1% less fuel at idle. To adjust this change the injector latency map. The latency map is in ms, not ms/% like injector scale. To convert the percent fuel trim into a ms value you have to multiply by the fuel injector scale. You take the fuel injector scale in ms/% times the long term idle fuel trim in % and that gives you the long term idle fuel trim in ms. Then you use that value and either add it or subtract it from your injector latency map.

Keep repeating the test drives and tweaking of the injector scale and injector latency until the long term trims are sufficiently close to zero.

Hope that helps. Smiley

So let's say I started with TVUB values of:
5 4 3 2 1

And let's say my KRKTE is:
1.0

And after a good amount of driving at different conditions, my idle LTFTs were -1%. The way I interpret Tony's post is to multiply the idle LTFT (-0.01) by the KRKTE (1.0) which would give me -0.01. Then, if I understand his post correctly, I would add it to the existing TVUB values, across the board (although in this case it'd be subtraction), like this:
OLD: 5 4 3 2 1
NEW: 4.99, 3.99, 2.99, 1.99, 0.99

Those who've actually calculated TVUB values by injector specifications and interpolated theoretical values know it's not linear... however, if I interpreted Tony's post correctly, suggests to adjust it linearly. Is this correct, or did I misunderstand his post?

Thanks,
Brett
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julex
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« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2012, 08:20:39 PM »

for that method you must go through couple of cycles of adjusting long term low range and high range LTFTs followed by TVUB to get idle in checks.

Then repeat it.

The problem is that TVUB affects idle the most but it also is a natural component of injection time for any load range albeit the longer the injector is open (higher load and maf flow), the less % wise TVUB affects it.

At idle, if the injector has to open for 0.5ms with TVUB of 0.7ms, the tvub is actually larger then required pulse width of injector to reac proper mixture. If TVUB is off by 10%, it will inbalance the mixture by 0.7/0.5 = 1.4, which gives 1.4 * 10% = 14% off the proper mixture.

At higher load when the injector needs to open for 10ms, the total open time wold be 10 + 0.7 = 10.7 which gives 0.7/10 = 0.07, which gives 0.07 * 10% = 0.7% off the proper mixture.

That's why you want to get the KRKTE by riding the car hard and once you have KRTE honed down to within couple of %, you switch you attention to idle and use tony's method. Eventually you will get it right however not the way you think.

You don't add just 0.01ms across the board since adding 0.01 to 0.01 means upping it 100% while adding 0.01 to 1.00 means upping it 1%.

Instead, you need to divide intended bump (0.01 in your case) by the TVUB value at the voltage you normally operate (14v or so) and get what part of the injection time it is in % at that voltage.

For example, you want to add 0.01 to say value 3 from your example.

0.01 / 3 = 0.00333

Now you want to multiply each TVUB value by 1.000333 and you will get TVUB scaled up by 0.000333 across all value EVENLY.

To properly interpolate TVUB you need to have reliable TVUB specs from injector manufacturer. And remember, TVUB values are always given for 3bar of fule pressure. Audis usually run 4bar FPR which means the injector needs to overcome more resistance and its TVUB needs to be multiplied by some value, usually ~16% for 3 to 4 bar bump but it might vary.

I hope I didn't bore you to death.
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PovGRide742
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« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2012, 06:20:05 AM »

Instead, you need to divide intended bump (0.01 in your case) by the TVUB value at the voltage you normally operate (14v or so) and get what part of the injection time it is in % at that voltage.

For example, you want to add 0.01 to say value 3 from your example.

0.01 / 3 = 0.00333

Now you want to multiply each TVUB value by 1.000333 and you will get TVUB scaled up by 0.000333 across all value EVENLY.
I had a feeling the way I did it was wrong... and that's why I asked. Thank you for the clear explanation!

As far as calculating the initial TVUB, I used the calibration summary that was linked on another thread for my injector, and interpolated the value for 4bar and multiplied it by to the interpolated values for voltages used in our TVUB map. That much I had down, it was just adjusting it after logging idle LTFTs that I was unsure of.
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littco
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« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2012, 11:05:57 AM »

Are these the values you used

6 = 5.202
8= 2.184
10= 1.435
11= 1.210
12= 1.041
13= 0.907
14= 0.789
15= 0.699

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PovGRide742
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« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2012, 02:05:23 PM »

Are these the values you used

6 = 5.202
8= 2.184
10= 1.435
11= 1.210
12= 1.041
13= 0.907
14= 0.789
15= 0.699


Sort of. You have to interpolate the ms values for the volts values used in TVUB. BUT you have to multiply all those values by the multiplier for 4bar of pressure, which ALSO needs to be interpolated. But yes, you are on the right track: http://www.boschdealer.com/specsheets/0280158117cs.jpg

I will be posting a thread soon with the theoretical values for Bosch EV14 52lb injectors, and an excel sheet on how I came up with them.
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jibberjive
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« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2012, 07:30:07 PM »

I've got a question, looking for some verification on units from the example in the OP.  So KRKTE is in (ms/%), and you're multiplying it by the idle LTFT (in %) to come up with a value in ms.  In the example in the OP, KRKTE was 1.0 and LTFT idle was -1%. Is it correct to multiply 1.0 * (1), or 1.0 * (.01) to come up with the value?  Examples I've seen in other threads show the former, but the example here in the OP shows the latter, so I'm a little confused on the proper units (they're both technically the percentage).
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julex
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« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2012, 10:47:49 AM »

Latin "per centum" = “by the hundred”  = 1/100th of a unit.

1% represented in mathematically digestible form is 0.01.

When using in a context "increase by 1%" it really means multiplying original number by 1.01.

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jibberjive
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« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2012, 11:16:43 AM »

I missed out on the latin lesson when my engineering professors talked about percentages Wink

I understand that in general, what threw me off, or rather made me question it, is the "dynamic_krkte_tvub" calculator excel spreadsheet in the other thread I just bumped.  If you look at cell E18, for example, it is multiplying the fuel trims in full percentage form (ie multiplying KRKTE by one percent by literally taking the KRKTE*(1)).  There's conflicting info, and I am just trying to figure out which is correct.  With load being units of percentage as well, I thought maybe there was some funky units thing going on for the calculations inside ME7.  Thanks for the clarification Smiley
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julex
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« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2012, 12:52:51 PM »

 Kiss

I don't have that spreadsheet but maybe there is some special notation in use that tells excel to multiply my % even though he is using whole numbers.
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s5fourdoor
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« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2012, 08:47:54 PM »

that spreadsheet i coded desperately needs repair.  no debate from me, i promise.
please give me any calculation corrections and i'll repair it.
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nyet
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« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2012, 02:41:03 PM »

I really think "tuning" TVUB based on log isn't really needed. You should start with the injector spec and use that. If your idle trims are significantly wrong, something is up with either your MAF or KRKTE, NOT with your TVUB

Thats my opinion, of course. Everybody tunes differently

Also, here is what I am using for my EV14s

http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=320.msg18405#msg18405
« Last Edit: July 15, 2012, 02:45:36 PM by nyet » Logged

ME7.1 tuning guide (READ FIRST)
ECUx Plot
ME7Sum checksum checker/corrrector for ME7.x

Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your experience.
ABCD
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« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2012, 02:40:15 AM »

Hi everyone,

have few doubts regarding LTFT & STFT.

Is LTFT = fra_w (multiplicative)
   STFT = rka_w (additive)

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aef
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« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2014, 02:52:14 AM »

Quote
To properly interpolate TVUB you need to have reliable TVUB specs from injector manufacturer. And remember, TVUB values are always given for 3bar of fule pressure. Audis usually run 4bar FPR which means the injector needs to overcome more resistance and its TVUB needs to be multiplied by some value, usually ~16% for 3 to 4 bar bump but it might vary.

I am running bosch injectors at 4bar with 3bar tvub values. my long term fuel trims at idle are 1.3% off and at partial load thy are 0%. So my KRKTE seams to be perfect and my TVUB needs correction.

change in flow from 3 to 4bar fuel pressure is 15,5% or ~16 what julex said.
Is this the proper way to scale TVUB for a changed fuel pressure?
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ddillenger
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« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2014, 07:34:58 AM »

Leave TVUB alone. 1.3 percent is within the acceptable range of deviation.
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aef
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« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2014, 09:12:10 AM »

Hmm thats what i heard before.
Just out of interest, whats the correct way if fuel pressure changes.
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