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Author Topic: Has anyone successfully tuned a me5 (557P)?  (Read 34530 times)
ricekikr
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« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2012, 08:45:45 AM »

Looks like I can use a 3.8 file on my 5.9 ecu. - Read a post of VR6 user using a 3.8.1 map on his 5.9.2 ecu. Only problem was the IMMO was preventing the car from starting.

Has anyone else tried this? I'm leaning towards doing this because the 3.8.2 is a lot better documented.
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pvl
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« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2012, 09:40:23 AM »

AFAIK 5.9.2 ecu = non-vr6.

You shall mean M5.9.1. USA passat VR6.

What's the weblink to the thread, so we can have a look to the article, please.

Thanks,

PvL
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pvl
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« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2012, 10:34:53 AM »

@ ricekikr :

About RPM :

http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=1400.0

Ask the one who last posted, and we'll all know how he figured it out if he's so helpfull to tell us..
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ricekikr
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« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2012, 11:12:59 AM »

3.8 > 5.9
Couldn't find the link. Anyways he just mentioned that he used a different file and it didn't start because of immo. Nothing real specific. And yeah it was for a VR6.

RPM: I just PM'd him. Hope he replies and hopefully he was successful.  Grin
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pvl
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« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2012, 01:30:05 PM »

A question about the car : is the car originally equipped with the 1.8T engine ?

Ifnow, ther might be another way to manipulate the revlimiter. But i must first look further into this. This ain't simple.
There's no direct max-rev-limiter in me3.8 it seems. It's calculated differently i get the feeling. More R&D is needed.

The only thing i found is, when the speedsignal is not available (conversion into another car without abs-canbus communication)
or when the signal isn't correct. I've added a screenshot of this failsafe-rev-limiter. The Motronic.ws website gave me some insight
how they calculate revs. 10.200rpm should be max revs this box is good for.

It would be really nice, if other members could chime-in and give us a hint...  All help welcome/appreciated !!!

Thanks,

PvL
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ricekikr
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« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2012, 07:07:46 PM »

743A = Speed Quantization = AA = 6800

Looks promising.

Side question: My other ecu is socketed, can I just put in a blank 256k eprom and write the program using OBD or will i need to bench it first?

And is the Clemens file still completely stock? Would you mind posting a completely stock ME3.8.3 file?

===================================================
Long story

It's still a 1.8t engine. I just quoted the VR6 guy, because he was able to go 5.9 to 3.8 (but wasn't able to start it because of IMMO).

I'm not sure what you mean by speedsignal? (rpm or vehicle speed?)

If its Vehicle Speed Sensor (VSS), a few years back, I cut my ECU VSS wire (to remove speed limit, max was 130mph), with the stock ecu the rev-limit mysteriously went away for a while (ie. I could rev past 8000), not sure how long it was gone, because I used my piggy to set rev-limit at 6500rpm (engine was still stock then). I'm not sure if it's because the crank/cam/maf signal is being altered by the piggyback. After engine rebuild, I tried raising rev limit, but it would only go to 6500-6800rpm, tried trimming down the WOT MAF voltage (WOT MAF voltage looks like it going slightly downhill at higher RPMs), it would rev to 7300rpm. But on very RARE occasions it would still revlimit to around 6500-6800. Weird thing is this ECU is supposedly stock (I bought it used a few years ago). So even the 7300rpm isn't right. I wonder if the data if corrupt of something. Currently using it and it works perfectly @30psi/7300rpm.


My other ECU (chipped/socketed) has always had a 6500rpm redline, irregardless of what I did. Another weird thing is this ECU has always had a checksum CEL but never had a problem starting the car. And it also resets LTFT and STFT every time the engine is shut off, might be coded that way.

Both are ecu's are ME5.9.2 (557P). One stock, one chipped.

Engine / ECU specs:
1.8t AEB manual quattro (rods/valves/valvesprings)
557P
AEM Fic piggyback
Siemens 870cc
Mafless - MAF is still plugged in, but not in airflow.
PTE5857 @30psi - stock ECU + piggy + 93meth
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pvl
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« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2012, 02:00:23 AM »

"Side question: My other ecu is socketed, can I just put in a blank 256k eprom and write the program using OBD" -> Eproms where used in M3.8.2. We now have
OBD-programmable FLASHROMS inside (in the M3.8.3 and M5.92) VERY handy !!!!.

" or will i need to bench it first?" -> You can optionally benchflash it. For example with a mpps interface. Works great. 3mins and the job is done.

"And is the Clemens file still completely stock? Would you mind posting a completely stock ME3.8.3 file?" To my knowledge, all posted files are non-tuned, original files.
You want only the binary-file, and not the .ols-projectfile you mean ? Winols FULL supports the export-function, and you can export it back to a plain .BIN file, without
the labels. Time to wonder-around a bit in winols Wink The DEMO is restricted in only LOADING files. NOT saveing !!!!  Thats disabled.

That piggyback-crap can be thrown into the bin. I don't like it, and if you can really program, it should never be needed in the first place. Only if the original ecu cannot do extra tasks which are vital, then it may be a solution. Then one may use such a crude way of interveining/manipulating a original setup.  It's like the TDI-tuningboxes. They work. And there are a lot of differences between them. Needed ? No.

Would like to see some pics of that socketed ecu inside. What tune is it ? I bet, it's a crypted one.

About adresses of maps...  When a specific software-version is compiled, the maps usually are offset SLIGHTLY, compared to different ecu of the same generation. It has to do with several things. In Winols, you can link/lock 2 binary-files to eachother and slightly offset 1 to the other, so the maps are compareable and also the details of the maps can be copied into the other binary (.ols project on winols-full). That way you can document a binary from scratch and quickly see where all important maps are.
This counts for maps and constants. You need to get a bit of feeling with it, and it will be possible to get a 90-95% documented file out of it. I did this with a Golf 1.8T 1998 AGU ecu (06A906018R - D03). Picked the M3.8.2 pre-labeled file, and looked-up the constants and maps, and copied those.

http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=1400.msg13370#msg13370

I've included the stock binary of that .ols project in this post. That should properly help
you out with the M5.92 as they are nearly the same. Only maps shall be offsetted SLIGHTLY. Thats
up to you to adjust, copy mapdetails, and create yourselfe a .ols projectfile nearly completely documented. Piggyback -> trashcan/ebay.
There are physical limitations to this ecu, but they can be overcome via larger mafhousings and bigger injectors.

The CEL-on-situation shall be on the tuned file i presume ? typiccal checksum-problems due to tuners who don't have the right tools or knowledge of this ecu.
This also happens on ME7 alot in the beginning, when just released.


-> Mafless - MAF is still plugged in, but not in airflow. This system (M3.8.3/M5.92) is based around maf-input. Sorry but this is just not the way to do it right to
    get full benefit of the ecu itselfe. It's a compromised situation in my opinion. A Hack. Not a tune.

Why not take a better/newer ecu that has way more capabilities for tuning ? ME7 can run big turbo's right out of the box. This one has too much limitations.

300 bhp is no problem. Above this, one needs to totally know the program to get a big turbo config running like that PTE5857, without using fooling-devices (piggyback
stuff).
 
"has always had a 6500rpm redline" -> coded into the ecu's software. By upping the Revlimit you scale-down the resolution of the maps..... So they need to be completely rewritten for accurate function and correct max power. This is with nearly ALL ecu's.

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ricekikr
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« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2012, 03:26:21 AM »

Thanks again for the help and the file  Grin - So I still need to offset it to make it work, I thought I could simply write the 3.8file to 5.9ecu and it'd work. If that's the case I'll just offset the 5.9 and learn what it's for.

Time to read up on Winols - Thanks for the tip on locking two binary files. I wonder if it can also lock the 1x1 maps.

---------------------

Piggyback - It was the cheapest option I had a couple years ago, before learning of Nefmoto. And I never thought I would even slightly understand HEX (I don't have a computer programming background). Didn't know that there was this much support (easier learning).

I'll still be using the Piggy for ease of use. Nothing beats live tuning and AFR logging. But yeah, I totally agree the piggyback is a bandaid tune. Definitely better to tune via stock ECU. But then again, I've been using this piggy for 2years already so far so good.

Mafless - I just like tuning with a psi scale instead of volts.

Winols Demo - Can't I get away with editing via Winols then just use HexEdit to make the bin file?

ME7 - I thought about this before building the car, mainly because of MAESTRO 7 (me7 tuning suite), But I'd have to rewire the whole car. (engine harness, replace instrument cluster and instrument cluster harness, various sensors, DBW throttle/pedal, etc etc). Basically too much work and money.

300bhp - Not sure how accurate the AEM FIC dyno calculator is (based on weight, rpm, gear ratio, front aero etc) - Max AWHP I got was 380awhp (roughly 470bhp) - 30psi / 93+meth / 1.8t.  When I was still using a 50trim it said I had around 270whp, but raced a 300whp (dynoed) (same car model) from a roll and we were neck and neck, so I guess it's somewhat accurate.

Socketed ECU - It was locally tuned by the previous owner, not sure what was used to tune it. Gona take pics as soon as I remember to bring home my torx set. Keep forgetting lol.
 
Rescaling the maps - Wasn't planning on doing that, because of piggy and last known value.
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pvl
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« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2012, 04:04:27 AM »

Hi.

"I thought I could simply write the 3.8file to 5.9ecu and it'd work" -> It ain't that simple. People really think too simple with swapping stuff. Like it's lego. Well it is, if you take some time to figure-out how stuff works. Then things begin to make sense, and you can see which parts are interchangeable without any influence.

You tell me for starters, why that US-A4-1.8T is running M5.92. And why we over here in Europe, have M3.8.2. on the same car Wink

The M3.8.3 file is of a Golf with 06A engine and same head as AEB (bigport). I would not recommend to use that on your car. The communication with other components, like ABS is specifically written for the 06A-platform in that file. Like yours is for the A4-platform written. All this, most people sem to forget....as OOPS...  i didn't know that ?
Yes a car is a complicated piece of hardware ! the manufacturer did it's best to adapt the latest technology availble to get the most out of it. In all aspects. Readup some volkswagen SSP's and you'll see how advanced they are :

http://www.volkspage.net/technik/ssp/index3_eng.php

ME7 is perfectly adaptable. No problemo. Immo-defeat the ecu, 1x enginebay wiringloom/ecu, 1 x potmeter-gaspedal and 1 x throttlebody, 1x maf. Add some fresh coilplugs and i think you're good to go. A few bits and bobs shall be needed extra, but basically, it's doable. Most are only afraid of it...  Getting hands dirty....

Winols : The demo is too crippled to work with. You cannot export. Only the full version can do this. But the software is very good to do some research with. The full version is needed for modifying and trying-out on your car.

Keep the M 5.92 for the moment. Try to read-out the current tune please. Would like to have a look at that. For what config is it tuned ?

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ricekikr
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« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2012, 05:26:39 AM »

I have a euro a4 1.8t using a USA M5.92 ecu. Maybe that's the reason for the funky rev-limit.

Would you happen to have a m3.8.2/3 that came from 97 a4 1.8t AEB?

Readout current ECU = I don't have an idea how I can do that lol. I don't have a fprom reader/writer. I'll just be using my ebay vagcom to write the files.



M7 = With my current setup, it's mostly cost for something that can be done at no extra cost / work. The only real benefit for me is that the ME7 can use much larger throttle bodies. I'm stuck with the AHA/vr6 TB, which gives me CEL because ECU can't do basic setting on it (but still idles just fine). My current setup is almost perfect, for me at least. Just need to adjust the cold compensate and change rev-limiter. But after I do that, I'd really like to set a base fuel map and ignition map to keep piggyback changes to a minimum.

But if this is gona be for a new project, ME7 would be great. More accurate control and less things to fail.
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pvl
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« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2012, 08:29:24 AM »

That should be for the 1997 model, this revision.
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ricekikr
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« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2012, 09:29:36 AM »

Thanks again  Grin

I'm trying to make an XDF file for ME5.9.2

Are the offsets in the ME3.1 manual applicable for ME3.8.2/3 / 5.9.2

Ignition Advance = Factor .75 Offset -22.5 = I assume this is in Degrees
Fuel correction start point is still 128. So X-128 = Y; is Y in %?


And how does one set the X and Y axis labels. It's like XDF is getting them from different parts of the file, eventhough I set start point to the same point as Winols. Right now I'm entering them manually. Just copying the Winols labels.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2012, 09:34:56 AM by ricekikr » Logged
pvl
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« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2012, 09:49:33 AM »

"Are the offsets in the ME3.1 manual applicable for ME3.8.2/3 / 5.9.2" -> use the M3.8.2 .ols file from Clemens.

You keep asking things that are in the .ols file.  Doubleclick a table (not a constant), in the window that opens,
rightclick a value in the table and choose preferences (text tab lower left corner active). There you have it.
The full monthy. All settings.

Good luck in tunerpro. Be sure to frequently safe your work. It's not that stable.... with bigger tables.

PvL
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ricekikr
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« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2012, 04:04:48 PM »

"Are the offsets in the ME3.1 manual applicable for ME3.8.2/3 / 5.9.2" -> use the M3.8.2 .ols file from Clemens.

Ahh of course. I keep forgetting the Clemens file is all I need to make a 5.9.2 file readable. Sorry for the noobness  Grin

Edit: Are the "Potential Maps" that Winols finds real maps? I was comparing 16x16 maps. 3 were found by Winols for the 5.9.2, but none of them even look similar to the Clemens 16x16 maps, well except for one map found by Winols.


« Last Edit: February 27, 2012, 04:28:07 PM by ricekikr » Logged
pvl
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« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2012, 04:25:43 PM »

Spend some time in Winols, and you'll see it will pay-off the more you work with it.

Most adresses are offsetted of nearly all maps, so you need to re-align your m5.8.2 bin against the .ols defined one
constantly, but it is VERY doable. then the mapdetection and mapcopy-functions from binfile 1 to binfile 2 are a breeze
and help you quickly populate your m5.8.2 original file. Most values in the maptables and constants are 1:1 you will notice.
Very handy to quickly produce a specific .ols project of a specific software-version.

Most people call this a Damos, but it isn't a Damos. A Damos is something different. And rare. Hard to find. It's something
car-ecu-calibrators use in combination with advanced logdevices. Sort of Alpha-based code of the initial program. The
binary, is the result of the calibrator's work after compiling it. So it's ready for bosch to preload into the ecu that they
send-off to a manufacturer.
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