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Author Topic: Recalibration of ECU on NA engine to Turbo  (Read 856 times)
GolfSportWagen
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« on: October 13, 2019, 09:47:29 PM »

Nyet - Since this is about re-engineering I thought this might be the appropriate area to post these questions. If not please move.

I know some folks sell tunes for NA engines such as the VR6 that has been converted to a turbo setup. It's unclear from my discussions with the car owners and the tune sellers how well these aftermarket tunes actually perform. Some folks are willing to tolerate a lot of poor running for the increased power.  Wink

I'd like to know the following if anyone can answer these questions:

1. Has anyone here been able to reprogram an OE ME 7.1.1 ECU from an NA engine to run properly thru the entire RPM range on a cold to hot engine that has been converted to a turbo engine? My application includes a DSG trans and AWD.

2. Has anyone been able to reprogram a ME 7.1.1 to work together with an aftermarket EFI/Ignition ECU so as to retain all of the OE functionality of the ME 7.1.1 while using the aftermarket system to run the EFI/Ign. of a converted NA to turbo engine? If so what aftermarket system did you use and on what application?

TIA
« Last Edit: October 13, 2019, 09:49:52 PM by GolfSportWagen » Logged
nyet
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« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2019, 10:23:28 PM »

my 2 cents:

Pointless to hack NA ECUs to run FI. It can be done, but it introduces so many shitty hacks it isn't worth it. Just about any standalone will do a better job, but you lose all of the safeties built into Motronic.

That said, most of them have to be disabled to hack an NA motronic ECU to get it to work in an FI application anyway, especially if you are pondering some sort of franken mix of the two.

That is my opinion though. I'm sure there are many that disagree with me.

As far as picking a standalone system; i'd say its a matter of budget and what you have the most experience tuning.

Also, once you are willing to give up the driveability and safety niceties of motronic, you do get some of the really nice real time logging/tuning functionality of modern standalone systems.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2019, 10:26:28 PM by nyet » Logged

ME7.1 tuning guide (READ FIRST)
ECUx Plot
ME7Sum checksum checker/corrrector for ME7.x

Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your experience.
prj
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« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2019, 12:59:00 AM »

It's very much doable, but it needs custom tuning.
Most stuff that is sold is pretty bad.
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fluke9
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« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2019, 04:03:26 AM »

my 2 cents:

Pointless to hack NA ECUs to run FI. It can be done, but it introduces so many shitty hacks it isn't worth it. Just about any standalone will do a better job, but you lose all of the safeties built into Motronic.

I have seen some supercharger conversions where FI with a NA Motronic works just fine.
But this very much depends on the linear boost you get from a supercharger.

Would opt for a standalone in a turbo conversion too.


I converted a NA Alfa GTV 3.0 to Supercharger quite successfully by only running ignition on the Motronic, and fueling on a Megasquirt.
Next thing is a conversion of my 156 GTA 3.2 to Supercharger which runs a ME7.3.1 which i will try to keep.


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prj
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« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2019, 05:05:54 AM »

Next thing is a conversion of my 156 GTA 3.2 to Supercharger which runs a ME7.3.1 which i will try to keep.
BTDT, working perfectly.
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fluke9
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« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2019, 05:27:24 AM »

BTDT, working perfectly.

Nice!
I almost opted for a VEMS but somehow i still dont want to loose factory knock control and other stuff.

My supercharged bussos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnJN-CjKQNs    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0t-6JTvSEA
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woj
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« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2019, 05:33:00 AM »

I converted two different ECUs from NA to turbo, including fully featured electronic boost control implemented on these very ECUs using free pins for the solenoid. The first one was a flawless job (still runs since 2009, EBC was added in 2013), the other one I cannot state anything with full confidence, I did not get to finish the fine tuning and the problems I was experiencing till I had to dump the project were not the most trivial ones (though by now I am quite certain I know what they were).

But, these were much simpler things than ME-s, though the second one was also ST10 based, it did not have torque structure or anything similar (and the code base size of about 30-50% of that of ME). I would attempt having a shot at ME with this, but somebody would have to pay me insane amounts of money and do some magic so that I'd have time for it.

For a half decent external solution look up DET from ECU master, but I am totally unsure how well it does things for more complex setups.
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Marty
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« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2019, 05:51:34 AM »

i can help find load caps and other maps done a few na to t myself but not with dsg. i dont really see that being a problem aside form software will need to be tuned to suit engine setup. i know none wants to hear this but group-in tune? Tongue
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Blazius
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« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2019, 09:58:11 AM »

As said, it can be done , but the real reason you would do this is costs or just madness. as you know I probably have the only 1.8 turbo converted me7.5 running on stock ecu in europe, and so I can help with a few things if you decide to go that way.

But as I said before, many things differ in atmo softs, such as 120% torque structure like automatics trans, bts fueling switched off, different charge control , changeover etc.

You mentioned a few times you have me7.1 but what kind of car and engine? Audi , vr5, A6, 2.4 v6, 2.8 ?  

Also n156 runs off n75 power stage, you can kinda use it for boost manipulation if you arent going mbc or internal wg only.

DET is a very good piece of hardware for the money, it can also run semi standalone mode( running injectors separate from ecu signals), but for similar money you can get some decent standalone ecu's too.
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BlackT
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« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2019, 01:29:32 PM »

Why not make your own pigiback ECU.  You can make something like 1:2 relationship between ECU and MAF.   a few years ago i made that with me3 and arduino.
The ecu was controling all, but injectors and turbo were contorled by arduino.
lets say real g/s is 180. that is input in arduino. ->  Arduino outputs to ECu 120 g/s
Then ECU outputs to injectors lets say 60%DC, -> arduino then gain it to 80%
It was working good in all conditions
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nyet
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« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2019, 02:43:22 PM »

Why not make your own pigiback ECU.  You can make something like 1:2 relationship between ECU and MAF.   a few years ago i made that with me3 and arduino.
The ecu was controling all, but injectors and turbo were contorled by arduino.
lets say real g/s is 180. that is input in arduino. ->  Arduino outputs to ECu 120 g/s
Then ECU outputs to injectors lets say 60%DC, -> arduino then gain it to 80%
It was working good in all conditions

Because you're going to end up defeating just about everything that is interesting in Motronic to 1) not have it throw codes 2) not drive like shit in part-throttle and only drive a little like shit in part-throttle etc.

At which point you may as well go standalone.

But yes, a lot of tuners take this approach, even for tuning non-NA cars for bigger turbos etc.
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ME7.1 tuning guide (READ FIRST)
ECUx Plot
ME7Sum checksum checker/corrrector for ME7.x

Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your experience.
BlackT
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« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2019, 03:03:06 PM »

Because you're going to end up defeating just about everything that is interesting in Motronic to 1) not have it throw codes 2) not drive like shit in part-throttle and only drive a little like shit in part-throttle etc.

At which point you may as well go standalone.

But yes, a lot of tuners take this approach, even for tuning non-NA cars for bigger turbos etc.
That car was my everyday car. Never had any issue, or shit drive like you said. I drove it like original car, only with more power when I need it. And many people drive my car, noeone have ever doubt that something like that is in car, or that the engine behevier unusual.
Of course I have pedal position input in arduino and aditional MAP sensor for better boost control.
I am not only sure how ESP/ASR would behevier with that pigyback. Beacuse I didn't have it on my car
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GolfSportWagen
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« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2019, 04:58:05 PM »

Thanks for all the info. folks. I knew this was not going to be easy or maybe not practical when it's all said and done. I am not totally opposed to an aftermarket ECU system but I would not give up some of the Motronic controls to use a less sophisticated ECU. It's unfortunate that the ME 7 series can't be easily converted to simply MAF without the torque based strategy.

For those interested the application is a 2008 VW R32 with the 3.2L VR6 engine, DSG and AWD. Not sure if supercharging is viable but if it offered a practical 7.1.1 ECU tuning path it might be an acceptable option. Will need to investigate that possibility before I start trying to hack the Motronic in any serious fashion.
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jochen_145
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« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2019, 02:23:08 AM »

For those interested the application is a 2008 VW R32 with the 3.2L VR6 engine, DSG and AWD. Not sure if supercharging is viable but if it offered a practical 7.1.1 ECU tuning path it might be an acceptable option. Will need to investigate that possibility before I start trying to hack the Motronic in any serious fashion.

If you are talking about HGP-turbo, they bough turbo-functionallity from Bosch and let it added it to NA-Software, AFAIK
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GolfSportWagen
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« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2019, 01:17:45 PM »

If you are talking about HGP-turbo, they bough turbo-functionallity from Bosch and let it added it to NA-Software, AFAIK

That would probably be the ideal way to go.
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