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Author Topic: Adding turbo to VR6 3.2, my experience, QA  (Read 26488 times)
prj
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« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2019, 01:47:08 AM »

In the 20+ years that I have owned VR6 powered vehicles I have never heard of or seen any VR6 turbo engine using a MAP sensor which is the preferred method for monitoring cylinder density.
1. I've been doing this for years.
2. a MAP sensor is not the "preferred method for monitoring cylinder density". It is an indirect method. The HFM is a direct method. There are arguments for and against each. OEM diesel cars even in this day and age all have a MAF sensor because the speed density model is not precise enough to hit emission targets. Don't just throw out opinions as fact, thank you.

Quote
I think between this thread and the one below VR6 owners and others looking to convert an NA engine to FI will be able to see the challenges, pitfalls, limitations and options that exist should they decide to pursue a project of this magnitude. None of the options are for the faint of heart other than buying a tune and hoping it works.
I think this thread is a waste of space on this forum. This forum is about tuning the OE ECU.
This thread is about irrelevant BS that has nothing to do with the tuning aspect. It's just a bunch of people discussing buzzwords and failures. Best this thread is a good example for is - HOW NOT TO MAKE A R32 CONVERSION.
I don't understand why this thread is even in tuning when the OP basically has not even touched the ECU, there isn't a single log provided.

As for your BS regarding NOS and what not - if it's a drag race car, use a standalone, what's there to think? The stock ECU is there to run a street car.
All the things you listed are illegal on a street car in most countries.

As I said - if you don't know how to do this, give it to someone more capable.
Instead you're so high up on your horse you think that if you can't do it - no one can. "Oh, but it's hacked, oh I bet it's gonna run like shit and not right bla bla bla" - This is not the case. It is YOU who is the problem, not the rest of us.
Those of us who have the brains to do this have had running, fully working R32 turbo conversions for years, that drive like a factory car. And we will continue to have them. No you can't have this for free.

So enough bashing the stock engine management when it's YOU who can not modify and tune it. If YOU don't want to do it, then get off this forum, you're in the wrong place.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2019, 01:55:55 AM by prj » Logged

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woj
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« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2019, 02:31:32 AM »

All the things you listed are illegal on a street car in most countries.

Most of the things we do here are technically illegal in most countries (if not doing complex and expensive legalising procedures).

"Oh, but it's hacked, oh I bet it's gonna run like shit and not right bla bla bla" - This is not the case.

This is precisely what I was on about couple of posts back - this is the general result of such threads.
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larppaxyz
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« Reply #32 on: December 06, 2019, 10:34:44 AM »

Since some (clearly very skilled) people here seem to have strong opinions about what and how should be written here, how things should be done and what people should discuss about, i'm going to back off and leave posting to this forum for other people.
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Blazius
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« Reply #33 on: December 06, 2019, 10:42:02 AM »

Since some (clearly very skilled) people here seem to have strong opinions about what and how should be written here, how things should be done and what people should discuss about, i'm going to back off and leave posting to this forum for other people.


its fine, its your experience, maybe it is how it should be done, maybe it isnt but all you get is more knowledge of how it should be done which isnt a bad thing IMO.
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woj
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« Reply #34 on: December 06, 2019, 11:30:59 AM »

Since some (clearly very skilled) people here seem to have strong opinions about what and how should be written here, how things should be done and what people should discuss about, i'm going to back off and leave posting to this forum for other people.

Relax, it's a tough game over here, I got bashed couple of times myself. I treated this as an encouragement, just there is a specific way of giving feedback by certain individuals, cultural thing I assure you Wink. With a car / engine like yours you should be really looking for a better worked out solution Wink (My first turbo project took me around 4 years to the point where I wanted it to be and I could declare it a proper solution, and you had no idea what kind of crap I got as feedback when I started (not here though)). 
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GolfSportWagen
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« Reply #35 on: December 06, 2019, 07:13:12 PM »

1. I've been doing this for years.
2. a MAP sensor is not the "preferred method for monitoring cylinder density". It is an indirect method. The HFM is a direct method. There are arguments for and against each. OEM diesel cars even in this day and age all have a MAF sensor because the speed density model is not precise enough to hit emission targets. Don't just throw out opinions as fact, thank you.
I think this thread is a waste of space on this forum. This forum is about tuning the OE ECU.
This thread is about irrelevant BS that has nothing to do with the tuning aspect. It's just a bunch of people discussing buzzwords and failures. Best this thread is a good example for is - HOW NOT TO MAKE A R32 CONVERSION.
I don't understand why this thread is even in tuning when the OP basically has not even touched the ECU, there isn't a single log provided.

As for your BS regarding NOS and what not - if it's a drag race car, use a standalone, what's there to think? The stock ECU is there to run a street car.
All the things you listed are illegal on a street car in most countries.

As I said - if you don't know how to do this, give it to someone more capable.
Instead you're so high up on your horse you think that if you can't do it - no one can. "Oh, but it's hacked, oh I bet it's gonna run like shit and not right bla bla bla" - This is not the case. It is YOU who is the problem, not the rest of us.
Those of us who have the brains to do this have had running, fully working R32 turbo conversions for years, that drive like a factory car. And we will continue to have them. No you can't have this for free.

So enough bashing the stock engine management when it's YOU who can not modify and tune it. If YOU don't want to do it, then get off this forum, you're in the wrong place.

We can agree to disagree because just like when I explained to you that retarded ignition timing can cause burndown of the exhaust system as confirmed by hundreds of entities including the auto makers, you insist on arguing you POV which is contrary to that of the majority of the world. While you are entitled to view this or any other thread or the Bosch OE ECUs any way you desire, it doesn't make your POV factual, it just makes it your POV. If everyone agreed with your POV then car makers like VW would not have switched from mass air flow systems on the 2.0T to a speed-density system with a MAP sensor in 2018 for U.S. based models where the U.S. has the most stringent ex. emissions requirements.

My comments in this thread are intended to show that there are finally various options available to VR6 and other NA engine owners looking to move to a forced induction system. If they feel adventurous and desire to hack the OE NA ECU they can see the challenges, limitations and pitfalls that exist. If they chose to go with a top line aftermarket engine management system they can have a properly calibrated engine without any hack settings/compromises plus additional features should they desire them. Apparently you are unaware that street driven vehicles use non-brake activated traction control, NOS injection, water injection, dual fuel injectors, etc. all available with top line aftermarket engine management systems but not available on the OE Bosch NA ECU. In addition the top tier aftermarket engine management systems allow people to create custom maps to run all sorts of controls the OE Bosch NA ECU can not. (See the link below for video highlights of custom Syvecs maps).

https://www.syvecs.com/help-videos/

I applaud the OP for posting his experiences - which is what the thread title states. If gives people with NA engines insight into the issues they will face and the possible engine damage they can cause with trying to hack the OE NA ECU.

For the record there is no high horse here. I prefer to do things properly not hack systems just because it's possible. Obviously you are offended that I don't subscribe to your hacking of the OE NA ECU because it impacts your income. Every time you have to patch/hack/scale the OE NA ECU because it doesn't have the correct maps or a MAP sensor as used by the majority of automakers for FI applications, you are applying a Band-Aid that creates other compromises. Pretending that the Bosch OE NA ECU offers the proper foundation to properly calibrate a FI engine is just denial. To berate the top of the line aftermarket engine management systems that surpass the Bosch OE NA ECU's limitations is ignorant and disrespectful of those who have invested years in developing an equal or superior engine management system to the Bosch OE NA ECU that isn't optimal for FI applications even when hacked. If you were to start with a completely blank Bosch ECU which can be used for speed-density, MAF or torque based strategies then you could program it properly like any other Bosch ECU but hacking it to try and make it into a half-assed compromise is a poor choice IMO. You are entitled to believe whatever makes you happy regarding hacking. Most people here are trying to recalibrate not re-engineer the ECU via hacks to make an NA ECU function properly in a FI conversion. If hacking the OE NA ECU was the best solution it would not be called hacking, it would be called re-engineering which is what must be done to properly calibrate the OE NA ECU for FI. No car maker would hack an NA ECU as you chose to do for FI.

The bottom line is that you are entitled to disagree with anything I post. Your opinion is not necessarily fact. Attacking me does not validate your beliefs nor change reality. Your personal attacks are improper, futile and counter to forum sharing of info. If you are unable to stick to the subject matter and express yourself as an adult without the insults maybe you should not post in these types of threads.

Unless you own this forum prj - and your name is Tony, I don't believe you have the authority to abuse other members, insult their intelligence or dictate what is posted here when it's intended to offer assistance to those with VR6 / NA engines looking for options on FI conversion engine management info.

If I'm incorrect on this matter please let me know Nyet.

prj - Let's move on because you're not getting anywhere with your insults, meritless claims and B.S. You are however driving helpful people out of the forum with your offensive and inappropriate demeanor...
« Last Edit: December 06, 2019, 08:26:44 PM by GolfSportWagen » Logged
GolfSportWagen
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« Reply #36 on: December 06, 2019, 07:17:48 PM »

Since some (clearly very skilled) people here seem to have strong opinions about what and how should be written here, how things should be done and what people should discuss about, i'm going to back off and leave posting to this forum for other people.


Don't leave because some folks are abusive and lack social skills. Your thread is actually useful for VR6 owners who want to venture into FI. They can learn some of the challenges and the options available to them. I personally would prefer not to go to FI if I can't calibrate the engine properly as I've done for many years, without hacking. That's my choice but you as well as other folks may well enjoy hacking/learning and be happy with the end result. Achieving the result on our own terms is what makes us all car enthusiasts! Go for what makes you happy but don't go blindly!  Wink
« Last Edit: December 06, 2019, 07:48:11 PM by GolfSportWagen » Logged
Mikhail
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« Reply #37 on: December 07, 2019, 03:47:17 AM »

I dont see much difference is functionality included To original compile or is it coded compiled and added afterwords. If it work it works. If you live matrix world like prj, the outcome is as clearminded as bosch guys. That I dont understand what such guru guys hang here.

« Last Edit: December 07, 2019, 03:51:17 AM by Mikhail » Logged
DT
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« Reply #38 on: December 07, 2019, 05:28:52 AM »

@GolfSportWagen
I think you should do some research into this before you try to bash prj. Do some extra research into why "It is an indirect method."
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prj
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« Reply #39 on: December 07, 2019, 05:54:35 AM »

We can agree to disagree because just like when I explained to you that retarded ignition timing can cause burndown of the exhaust system as confirmed by hundreds of entities including the auto makers, you insist on arguing you POV which is contrary to that of the majority of the world. While you are entitled to view this or any other thread or the Bosch OE ECUs any way you desire, it doesn't make your POV factual, it just makes it your POV. If everyone agreed with your POV then car makers like VW would not have switched from mass air flow systems on the 2.0T to a speed-density system with a MAP sensor in 2018 for U.S. based models where the U.S. has the most stringent ex. emissions requirements.
They switched to speed density, because the ECU's got complex enough where it was possible to hit emission targets using pressure sensors. Pressure sensors are much cheaper than a HFM and much more reliable. The reason is simply cost.
On a diesel emissions targets still can not be hit using speed density in this day and age, hence using HFM. HFM is more precise, because it actually measures what is going on, not calculates it indirectly.

Quote
My comments in this thread are intended to show that there are finally various options available to VR6 and other NA engine owners looking to move to a forced induction system. If they feel adventurous and desire to hack the OE NA ECU they can see the challenges, limitations and pitfalls that exist. If they chose to go with a top line aftermarket engine management system they can have a properly calibrated engine without any hack settings/compromises plus additional features should they desire them. Apparently you are unaware that street driven vehicles use non-brake activated traction control, NOS injection, water injection, dual fuel injectors, etc. all available with top line aftermarket engine management systems but not available on the OE Bosch NA ECU. In addition the top tier aftermarket engine management systems allow people to create custom maps to run all sorts of controls the OE Bosch NA ECU can not. (See the link below for video highlights of custom Syvecs maps).
This forum is about tuning the stock ECU. There have been standalones that can run these cars decently for 10 years. Seems like you've been living under a rock.
But anyone will still have to go somewhere to get it tuned. You need a dyno, and you need very good knowledge about how to set up an engine with VVT on both cams, not to mention calibrating knock control from scratch - that's always fun.
Oh and no, it won't run any better on a street car, than a properly modified standard ECU - and it will also cost 10 times as much.

Do you know why I know this? Because I tune standalones on my dyno. Hell, I am a dealer and we sell them every day.

Quote
For the record there is no high horse here. I prefer to do things properly not hack systems just because it's possible. Obviously you are offended that I don't subscribe to your hacking of the OE NA ECU because it impacts your income. Every time you have to patch/hack/scale the OE NA ECU because it doesn't have the correct maps or a MAP sensor as used by the majority of automakers for FI applications, you are applying a Band-Aid that creates other compromises. Pretending that the Bosch OE NA ECU offers the proper foundation to properly calibrate a FI engine is just denial. To berate the top of the line aftermarket engine management systems that surpass the Bosch OE NA ECU's limitations is ignorant and disrespectful of those who have invested years in developing an equal or superior engine management system to the Bosch OE NA ECU that isn't optimal for FI applications even when hacked. If you were to start with a completely blank Bosch ECU which can be used for speed-density, MAF or torque based strategies then you could program it properly like any other Bosch ECU but hacking it to try and make it into a half-assed compromise is a poor choice IMO. You are entitled to believe whatever makes you happy regarding hacking. Most people here are trying to recalibrate not re-engineer the ECU via hacks to make an NA ECU function properly in a FI conversion. If hacking the OE NA ECU was the best solution it would not be called hacking, it would be called re-engineering which is what must be done to properly calibrate the OE NA ECU for FI. No car maker would hack an NA ECU as you chose to do for FI.

You know what dude? FUCK YOU.
Do you know why? Because you haven't even seen my work, and you're saying it's a "half assed bandaid".
That's the only answer you deserve.
Last I checked ME7 is used on 1.8T and 2.7T. I guess you better call Bosch and tell them that their hacked ECU sucks. It wasn't designed for FI.
Maybe call Bentley too, and tell them their turbocharged Continental W12, that uses dual VR6 Bosch ECU's is also a bullshit hack.

Bonus LULZ for "income". If my income was 20 year old shit, I'd be bankrupt.

P.S.
I am very glad if you got offended. Talk shit, get shit.
You have contributed absolutely nothing to this forum of value, besides talking trash and pushing random products.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2019, 06:04:14 AM by prj » Logged

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IamwhoIam
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« Reply #40 on: December 07, 2019, 06:20:06 AM »

Now where's my popcorn stash?
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IamwhoIam
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« Reply #41 on: December 07, 2019, 06:25:35 AM »


snip blah blah

blah


blah


blah


blah

yadda

yaddy

yadda

blah


blah


Goes on and on and on and on about OEM this OEM that, hacking OEM and yet thinks Syvecs is a top tier manufacturer? WTF are you smoking dude? Take me to your dealer please, I need some of that shit like yesterday!

reality check: when everyone calls you a fool, you might actually be one.
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woj
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« Reply #42 on: December 07, 2019, 07:57:11 AM »

Right right, those beautifully German engineered ECUs in which I had to fix factory bugs to actually make them work according to the original intentions of the developers, that have stupid artificial software limits making life extremely difficult to tune them beyond certain limits, etc. etc. I assure you that prj along with a group of other people from around here develop hacks that are of way better quality than the factory stuff. [And do not get me started on one of Marreli's proper "designs" from early 90-s that to this day I have no idea how it passed any quality control and made it to the market.]

No sir, these are not hacks we are talking about here, the same way as properly TIG welded stainless steel exhaust manifold done in the privacy of one's garage is not a hack compared to the stock cast iron shit only because the latter one was done by "an engineer" Wink It's simply a "custom job".
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IamwhoIam
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« Reply #43 on: December 07, 2019, 08:12:49 AM »

Right right, those beautifully German engineered ECUs in which I had to fix factory bugs to actually make them work according to the original intentions of the developers, that have stupid artificial software limits making life extremely difficult to tune them beyond certain limits, etc. etc. I assure you that prj along with a group of other people from around here develop hacks that are of way better quality than the factory stuff. [And do not get me started on one of Marreli's proper "designs" from early 90-s that to this day I have no idea how it passed any quality control and made it to the market.]

No sir, these are not hacks we are talking about here, the same way as properly TIG welded stainless steel exhaust manifold done in the privacy of one's garage is not a hack compared to the stock cast iron shit only because the latter one was done by "an engineer" Wink It's simply a "custom job".

Amen to that, the 5120 "hack" is one of the first things that come to mind here!
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nyet
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« Reply #44 on: December 07, 2019, 10:40:04 AM »

IMO you are all arguing over stuff that isn't worth debating at all.

No solution is perfect, there are advantages and drawbacks to every approach, from cost, to skill required, to time required.

There are approaches I think we can all agree objectively suck (older generation standalone, alpha-n hacks, MAF or load underscaling). But arguing over what the objectively best approach is (once the obvious hacks and noobs are appropriately discounted) is only inviting a pointless protracted subjective argument.

We can also agree that "professionals" employed by large corporations are definitely not deterministically "better" at anything. They make mistakes, they are lazy, they might show criminal level incompetence etc. We see evidence of that time and again (Boeing, lol). But arguing over "who is best" is also inviting a pointless protracted subjective argument.

Finally, note that I am not even going to address the personal attacks, since they are even less productive.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2019, 10:46:25 AM by nyet » Logged

ME7.1 tuning guide (READ FIRST)
ECUx Plot
ME7Sum checksum checker/corrrector for ME7.x

Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your experience.
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