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Author Topic: Tuning my stage 1/2 file - Audi TT 225.  (Read 29602 times)
nyet
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« Reply #60 on: January 15, 2020, 01:20:30 PM »

Let me make a thermostat analogy (since a thermostat is an example of the most simple PID there is)

Let's say your thermostat temperature sensor can read up to 105F

Due to poor Boeing airplane type design, the thermostat can be set to 110F

What happens when you set the thermostat to 106F?
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Tobs123
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« Reply #61 on: January 16, 2020, 03:11:41 AM »

So if temp goes higher than 105, the sensor will just read 105 and the 110 trigger will never be met so there is no safety intervention, temps can climb indefinitely? Hopefully I'm right  Smiley

Right bear with me in this, I'm trying to understand...

In the boost situation, given then we know the rough shape of boost curve, from previous runs below 22.5psi requsted boost (the sensor limit), if we see a flat line at 22.5 psi for x length of rpm (due to sensor max being exceeded), then we could extrapolate roughly where the actual boost would be (although its always a guess and we can't be 100% certain, and thus 100% safe). In my case, given gradient before and after straight line and duration of line, I'm guessing probably around 24 to 25 psi max, so in theory I'm only slightly over max, but only around 10%.

My uprated Turbo k04 CHR is rated to 28 psi max, but given blades are still same diameter as stock CHRA the only real advantage of having it is is that it can spin a little faster than stock, so as long as I am below 28 psi  I'm likely to realise more benefit no?  If I don't raise the boost request over what a stock CHRA can deliever I may as well have stuck with the stock CHRA. Is it likely that the turbo will exceed 28 psi with no safety intervention. I guess that's the risk I'm trying to estimate.

I'm trying to understand how I can increase torque and HP with current mods, and other than timing, the only thing I can do is play with boost request right? I've got the larger injectors and uprated fuel pump so I want to get more air going in so I can burn more fuel. Surely the only way to do this is getting the blades to spin faster and thus request more boost, but not too much??





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fknbrkn
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« Reply #62 on: January 16, 2020, 07:22:25 AM »

What happens when you req 1.7 and act stays at 1.55? Yes pid maxes out n75 trying to met them. Boost rising uncontrolable until you stock rods or turbo dies
You can handle it with kfldrl limits but it's a poor way to tune
And iirc no reason to push k04 more than 1.4. Timing gives you more
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nyet
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« Reply #63 on: January 16, 2020, 09:46:35 AM »

The extrapolation effort is going to be wildly inaccurate.

Do not request any boost near the sensor max. A real PID is more complex than a thermostat, and you really should give a pretty good margin (say 200-300 mbar) of headroom.

If you want more boost, you're going to want a sensor with a larger range (and the many associated ASM patches). It really is that simple. All of this is covered in the wiki.

Finally, just because a turbo can do 28psi doesn't mean it makes more power at 28psi than it does at 20psi.

Your last sentence worries me greatly.
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Tobs123
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« Reply #64 on: January 23, 2020, 07:19:40 AM »

Update: After reducing Boost back down as suggested, until I get larger MAF, some timing changes:

Retard:

-Reduced KRFKLN - Ignition retard per knock event from -3 to -0.75;
-DWKRMSN - Delta angle offset for average retard from -4.5 to -1.5

(bit of guess work as can't find any worked examples anywhere, would be nice if there were  Smiley):
-KFZW - Ignition angle map : Increased timing for 100% load by 2 degrees for entire rev range. 
Didn't touch KFZW2 - should I have done?

Overall car feels like its pulling a bit more across rev range so pretty happy with the timing change (less acceleration drop in higher revs), so far. Doesn't look like I've increased HP looking at numbers, MAF peaking only around 204, which suggests around 260 bhp, must be more than this cos was 262 on dyno on basic stage 1 around 10% less boost!? Car feels around the 280 to 290 mark?

Any observations on logs? Don't appear to have any adverse retard (obviously I reduced this so less than before), or evidence of increased knock? Had misfire on cylinder 2 and 3, but think I had that before so hopefully no biggy.

Interested in peoples thoughts advice? Could go an extra 1 degree in timing but no more as before I increase by 5 and car was suffering...Thanks
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Tobs123
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« Reply #65 on: January 23, 2020, 07:20:37 AM »

with logs (added more variables now)
« Last Edit: January 23, 2020, 07:27:40 AM by Tobs123 » Logged
nyet
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« Reply #66 on: January 23, 2020, 09:24:20 AM »

Modifying DWKRMSN is not safe unless you have det cans and know how to use them.

A safer way to reduce KR is to simply pull requested timing.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2020, 09:28:04 AM by nyet » Logged

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Tobs123
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« Reply #67 on: January 23, 2020, 09:38:17 AM »

OK thanks for that, so just to check: KRFKLN= 0 and reset DWKRMSN back to stock? Thanks.
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nyet
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« Reply #68 on: January 23, 2020, 10:06:31 AM »

Leave both stock unless you know what you are doing.
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Tobs123
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« Reply #69 on: January 23, 2020, 12:13:36 PM »

Well I'm trying to reduce the amount of retard, so KRFKLN seems the most obviously place to start. Would be good to have some worked examples (with caveats) in the wiki; people generally learn by example rather than just theory, not that I'm knocking what you've you done as its an essential and excellent resource for us DIY tuners, just some example tuning strategies (A, B etc.) would be the icing on the cake
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nyet
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« Reply #70 on: January 23, 2020, 12:24:02 PM »

Well I'm trying to reduce the amount of retard, so KRFKLN seems the most obviously place to start. Would be good to have some worked examples (with caveats) in the wiki; people generally learn by example rather than just theory, not that I'm knocking what you've you done as its an essential and excellent resource for us DIY tuners, just some example tuning strategies (A, B etc.) would be the icing on the cake

If by "reducing knock retard" you mean "increase the odds of knock" you're taking the wrong approach. Reduce requested timing until your KR is zero.

Wait for worst case conditions (very high IAT) and make sure they stay zero.

Add a bit of timing until you see one cyl start to correct. Stop there.

People may "learn by example" but they should know theory FIRST. If they do not, they have no choice but to trust other's advice blindly and take their word for it, unfortunately.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2020, 12:26:34 PM by nyet » Logged

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Tobs123
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« Reply #71 on: January 23, 2020, 01:24:02 PM »

ok Cheers for that. given that I have knock retard kicking in I guess that means can't do anything timing wise  Angry
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RBPE
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« Reply #72 on: January 23, 2020, 03:43:50 PM »

If by "reducing knock retard" you mean "increase the odds of knock" you're taking the wrong approach. Reduce requested timing until your KR is zero.

I did laugh at the way you said that 1st sentence if I'm being honest!"
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