Pages: [1] 2
Author Topic: Finding injector parameters with the injectors already on the car  (Read 21720 times)
prj
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +1072/-480
Offline Offline

Posts: 6034



Since I pretty much do not tune anymore, here's some info on how to scale aftermarket injectors, when you have no datasheet for them.

Let's say you have injectors on the car for which you do not have any clue what the TVUB could be, maybe you're not 100% on the flow rate either.
Let's assume for the moment that everything else on the car is linearized - because if not, then good luck to you. It is still doable, but without a huge amount of experience and knowledge you will not find out what's scaled wrong, so it is outside the scope of this topic.
Also before starting, pressure test the car and make sure there are no air leaks whatsoever anywhere, otherwise you're gonna have to do this all over again after fixing the leaks.

1. Set FKKVS to 1 everywhere.
2. Set KRKTE into the ballpark that you think it could be. By far the easiest way is to divide the OEM injector size by the current injector size and multiply KRKTE by this number, instead of trying to do theoretical calculations.
3. Take TVUB from some random injectors, that are at least the same type - e.g. EV6, EV14.
4. Start the car, if it doesn't start, you probably messed up really badly, so try to correct your error (or remove and clean the sparkplugs if you totally flooded it).
5. Let it warm up fully, so it's completely hot and there is no load on it.
6. Find KRKTE value so that you have more or less 1-2% fuel trim on idle with the hot engine.
7. Put some load on the engine, e.g. turn on the aircon, rotate the power steering, slip the clutch a little, put it in D if it's an auto instead of P/N, whatever. Observe what happens.
a) If the fuel trim goes positive, increase KRKTE, decrease TVUB at the voltage where you are testing (or just multiply the whole table), so FT is still good on idle, but does not drift away on load.
b) If the fuel trim goes negative, decrease KRKTE, increase TVUB at the voltage where you are testing (or just multiply the whole table), so FT is still good on idle, but does not drift away on load.
Usually it is good to change TVUB in 2% increments. Repeat this process until it's more or less stable, then proceed to 8.
8. Set the car on idle, fully warmed up. Increase the RPM, to 3000, then 6000 rpm without any load on the engine.
a) If the fuel trim goes positive, increase TVUB, decrease KRKTE to compensate, so that you still have good fuel trim on idle.
b) If the fuel trim goes negative, decrease TVUB, increase KRKTE to compensate, so that you still have good fuel trim on idle.
Repeat this process until you can slowly increase the RPM on hot idle and the fuel trim doesn't drift away.

And you're pretty much done. The rest compensate using FKKVS. Beware of large changes (more than 5% on high RPM), this most likely means your fuel pressure is dropping -> verify with a fuel pressure gauge.
Make sure you do not make any sudden movements/load changes, as your tip-in/tip-out enrichment might not be correct - those can be adjusted via KFBAKL/KFVAKL by making sharp throttle movements and observing what actual lambda is doing, but only after you have set KRKTE and TVUB correctly.
Logged

PM's will not be answered, so don't even try.
Log your car properly - WinOLS database - Tools/patches
Sandstorm3k
Sr. Member
****

Karma: +10/-14
Offline Offline

Posts: 402



« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2022, 10:54:29 AM »

Very interesting, thanks for taking the time to share  Smiley
Logged
nyet
Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +607/-168
Offline Offline

Posts: 12268


WWW
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2022, 12:14:32 PM »

Thanks prj, excellent summary. I should add it to the wiki.
Logged

ME7.1 tuning guide
ECUx Plot
ME7Sum checksum
Trim heatmap tool

Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your ex
EanDem
Full Member
***

Karma: +8/-40
Offline Offline

Posts: 78


« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2022, 01:51:38 PM »

Tiny suggestion to add remark for ethanol content in fuel - it will impact FC values by ethanol settling to tank bottom on car standstill/phase separation(water content).
Logged
prj
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +1072/-480
Offline Offline

Posts: 6034


« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2022, 04:11:06 PM »

Completely irrelevant if the car has been running until warmup, the fuel will be evenly mixed on any fuel system with a return.
Logged

PM's will not be answered, so don't even try.
Log your car properly - WinOLS database - Tools/patches
Risky
Full Member
***

Karma: +4/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 107


« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2022, 06:54:23 AM »

Good stuff, thnx  Smiley
Logged
kruftindustries
Full Member
***

Karma: +1/-1
Offline Offline

Posts: 50



« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2022, 06:10:11 AM »

I'm like a week too late to the party, maybe this is useful to someone.. Thanks prj!
http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=320.msg151363#msg151363
Logged
ThomasHH
Jr. Member
**

Karma: +6/-23
Offline Offline

Posts: 39


« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2022, 07:25:00 AM »

I think there are some inaccuracies in this algorithm above.

5. Let it warm up fully, so it's completely hot and there is no load on it.
6. Find KRKTE value so that you have more or less 1-2% fuel trim on idle with the hot engine.

It is not specified which trim to watch? If you mean STFT, it will be 1-2% after several minutes of running the engine while warming up.
While the engine warming up Idle LTFT will be adjusted and STFT will become 1-2%.

7. Put some load on the engine, e.g. turn on the aircon, rotate the power steering, slip the clutch a little, put it in D if it's an auto instead of P/N, whatever. Observe what happens.
a) If the fuel trim goes positive, increase KRKTE, decrease TVUB at the voltage where you are testing (or just multiply the whole table), so FT is still good on idle, but does not drift away on load.
b) If the fuel trim goes negative, decrease KRKTE, increase TVUB at the voltage where you are testing (or just multiply the whole table), so FT is still good on idle, but does not drift away on load.
Usually it is good to change TVUB in 2% increments. Repeat this process until it's more or less stable, then proceed to 8.
8. Set the car on idle, fully warmed up. Increase the RPM, to 3000, then 6000 rpm without any load on the engine.
a) If the fuel trim goes positive, increase TVUB, decrease KRKTE to compensate, so that you still have good fuel trim on idle.
b) If the fuel trim goes negative, decrease TVUB, increase KRKTE to compensate, so that you still have good fuel trim on idle.

Doesn't point 8 make point 7 meaningless because it is the opposite of what we did a while ago?
If we set up an Idle and now upset it, where will it end?
Logged
prj
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +1072/-480
Offline Offline

Posts: 6034


« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2022, 04:37:12 PM »

I think there are some inaccuracies in this algorithm above.

It is not specified which trim to watch? If you mean STFT, it will be 1-2% after several minutes of running the engine while warming up.
While the engine warming up Idle LTFT will be adjusted and STFT will become 1-2%.
Total fuel trim. Disable LTFT if it's easier.

Quote
Doesn't point 8 make point 7 meaningless because it is the opposite of what we did a while ago?
No, it is not the opposite at all.
Understanding how the hardware works helps to avoid asking such questions.

The last step is fine tuning. Read the whole post.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2022, 04:39:37 PM by prj » Logged

PM's will not be answered, so don't even try.
Log your car properly - WinOLS database - Tools/patches
ThomasHH
Jr. Member
**

Karma: +6/-23
Offline Offline

Posts: 39


« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2022, 11:34:53 PM »

No, it is not the opposite at all.
Understanding how the hardware works helps to avoid asking such questions.

You don't need to understand how the hardware works to see that point 8 is the оpposite of 7 Smiley
Logged
prj
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +1072/-480
Offline Offline

Posts: 6034


« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2022, 05:53:02 AM »

You don't need to understand how the hardware works to see that point 8 is the оpposite of 7 Smiley
Except it is not "the opposite".
If you knew the hardware, you would understand that point 8 is the final step, needs to be done only once and has a very small effect.
The reason it is there, is to account for non-linearity of injectors, and due to the fact that the engine behaves differently in different airflow situations. To make sure you do not bake that non-linearity into TVUB, where the non-linearity should be handled by FKKVS.

But hey, you can do it however you like.

Just keep in mind, that there is more than a decade of actual experience between every word and letter written here.
Something you seem to lack.

It needs to be done exactly in that order, period. If you do it in reverse order or you do one step, but not the other, you will never have a good result.
The input to the first part is increasing load at a fixed engine speed in a low airflow situation, the input to the second part is with much higher airflow but lower load. The engine behaves completely different with more airflow.
Two completely different inputs. The fact that the adjustment is worded one or the other way makes no difference. You are tuning the same two parameters. Your assumption that somehow 7 and 8 cancel each other out is BS, which shows your complete lack of understanding.

7 gets the rough KRKTE and TVUB parameters, 8 gets the correct/precise KRKTE and TVUB parameters from that. You can try to do only 8, but good luck to you. You better know all the math in your head eyes closed, and the engine better not have the tiniest air leak.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2022, 06:05:12 AM by prj » Logged

PM's will not be answered, so don't even try.
Log your car properly - WinOLS database - Tools/patches
azxuts
Newbie
*

Karma: +2/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 12


« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2022, 07:42:24 PM »

Good shit.

A little thing you can do if your dumbass decided to change the injectors and MAF at the same time is you can force your lambda target to see if your fueling inaccuracy lies in the MAF or injector scalings, for example:
-If you target lambda 0.99 (ie force open loop) and get lambda 1 on your wideband, you're MAF+injector scaling combined is accurate at that given load point (this is easy to accomplish)
-If you target lambda 0.8, and get lambda 0.9, then your injector isn't running long enough - your injector has a lower flow rate than you thought. Fix your KRKTE and adjust MAF scaling to compensate.
-If you target lambda 0.8, and get lambda 0.7, then your injector is running too long - your injector has a higher flow rate than you thought. Fix your KRKTE and adjust MAF scaling to compensate.

...or better yet, learn from that dumbass who did it and change one thing at a time Smiley
Logged
prj
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +1072/-480
Offline Offline

Posts: 6034


« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2022, 12:35:48 AM »

-If you target lambda 0.99 (ie force open loop) and get lambda 1 on your wideband, you're MAF+injector scaling combined is accurate at that given load point (this is easy to accomplish)
No, it does not mean anything. This is not how you check for correct MAF scaling. Both can be wrong.
Quote
-If you target lambda 0.8, and get lambda 0.9, then your injector isn't running long enough - your injector has a lower flow rate than you thought. Fix your KRKTE and adjust MAF scaling to compensate.
-If you target lambda 0.8, and get lambda 0.7, then your injector is running too long - your injector has a higher flow rate than you thought. Fix your KRKTE and adjust MAF scaling to compensate.
No.
Logged

PM's will not be answered, so don't even try.
Log your car properly - WinOLS database - Tools/patches
azxuts
Newbie
*

Karma: +2/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 12


« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2022, 04:24:40 AM »

This is not how you check for correct MAF scaling. Both can be wrong.
Yes precisely, perhaps I should have clarified that better when I said
Quote
MAF+injector scaling combined is accurate
What I mean is that together they are resulting in your target AFR being met, and that an error in both can combine together and cancel each other out as long as your lambda request/fuel trims stay the same as when you calibrated.
No.
Was there a fact I got wrong here? Obviously you shouldn't calibrate this way, but is my reasoning for actual AFRs not matching requested wrong?
Logged
prj
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +1072/-480
Offline Offline

Posts: 6034


« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2022, 10:31:26 AM »

Was there a fact I got wrong here? Obviously you shouldn't calibrate this way, but is my reasoning for actual AFRs not matching requested wrong?
Yes it's wrong.

MAF affects load. Having incorrect MAF calibration means that everything in the engine from throttle and knock control to ignition is wrong.
Your approach of garbage in, garbage out makes tuning and getting anything right a nightmare.

This is a perfect example of how not to tune.
Logged

PM's will not be answered, so don't even try.
Log your car properly - WinOLS database - Tools/patches
Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Page created in 0.035 seconds with 16 queries. (Pretty URLs adds 0.004s, 0q)