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Author Topic: BAM Wideband EGT enrichment ATR/ATM  (Read 3304 times)
yessmen
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« on: March 30, 2022, 02:23:54 AM »

Hi i tried to find something about EGT enrichment on BAM/AMK ECUs factory K04 wideband with real EGT ATR system.

The problem is that with hybrid turbo or even STG2 K04 high boost the EGTs go sky rocket high. About 900°C+ in 4th gear 6000rpm+ with 15° timming and 0,81 lamfa.
As i found The modeled BTS enrichment is factory disabled. And enrichment completely stay on ATR module which in 920°C dump raw fuel to cylinders.
On factory ATR with 630cc injectors it can overfuel to misfire trying to lower EGTs.
With factory 386cc injectors its not that much problem because it cannot supply enough fuel to misfire.


How can you sooner enrich to prevent this?

1) enable BTS fueling (did not find how to enable on BAM/AMK) its not probably that simple?
2) configure somehow ATR to lower output?

Thanks for the help!
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yessmen
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« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2022, 02:26:24 AM »

log attached
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aef
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« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2022, 06:09:58 AM »

B_tabgbts is not triggered in your log

reduce ATRI by 30% for a first test!
leave TABGSS @ 920
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prj
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« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2022, 06:25:11 AM »

ATR is closed loop. If you make it less rich, then you will not be able to reduce EGT, and you will melt something.
Adjusting ATRI and other PID control variables for ATR has nothing to do with injectors.

On stock injectors probably you hit 100% duty cycle and the EGT keeps rising.

Run richer lambda from the onset at higher rpm's. Run more ignition timing or god forbid reduce the boost.
Your problem is not ATR, your problem is that you reach ATR limit very quickly due to high EGT caused by poor tuning and/or poor hardware/fuel combination.
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aef
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« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2022, 06:43:56 AM »

Maybe i did not understand what he is trying to achieve.
To me it sounded like: When bts kicks in its over-enriching, what can i do to reduce this?

This is why i think ATRI is the correct map for this.
Why and when he is reaching the 920degree celsius is a another topic.
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yessmen
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« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2022, 07:12:39 AM »

Yes as I said I can see two options.
Reduce ATR
Enable BTS fueling.

So whats a way to go? I am tuning with Tuner PRO + xdf from here and theres no tables for the ATR adjustment.
Is it necessary tune with WinOLS?

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yessmen
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« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2022, 07:19:29 AM »

ATR is closed loop. If you make it less rich, then you will not be able to reduce EGT, and you will melt something.
Adjusting ATRI and other PID control variables for ATR has nothing to do with injectors.

On stock injectors probably you hit 100% duty cycle and the EGT keeps rising.

Run richer lambda from the onset at higher rpm's. Run more ignition timing or god forbid reduce the boost.
Your problem is not ATR, your problem is that you reach ATR limit very quickly due to high EGT caused by poor tuning and/or poor hardware/fuel combination.
Yes I think about lowering ATR TAGBTSS to 850°C and reduce action to not overfuel engine. Should work?

On stock injectors it was over 100% dc in ATR mode but actual lambda was around 0,76-0,77 (request 0,6) and EGTs were reducing just fine not go over 950 (TAGBTS=920). No overfueling.
But I upgraded to 630cc to have some headroom but bad overfueling appared.
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yessmen
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« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2022, 07:24:41 AM »

This is original config TABGBTSS=920°C
This is long high gear run and as you can see 99% time theres 0,65 lambda request to hold about 925°C.
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yessmen
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« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2022, 07:29:39 AM »

This is try file to enable BTS enrichment (modeled) but unfortunately not working and ECU follows LAMFA then ATR enrichment 950°C.
018BH file
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tom-k
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« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2022, 11:10:34 AM »

@1CB3C
set Hex Fe Fd Fd Fb and report
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prj
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« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2022, 11:36:54 AM »

First before I say anything. Do you guys understand that richer lambda = lower EGT?
Do you understand that it is already at 920C and even running minimum possible lambda EGT is going up past 920C?
Do you understand that if you remove ATR or kill it's reaction, this will just slow down the speed at which it reaches minimum lambda, and there will just be even more temperature overshoot?
Do you understand that EGT is not an infinite number? Do you understand that you can melt pistons with too high EGT? Or damage the turbo?

If you do, then WTF are you guys doing?

Maybe i did not understand what he is trying to achieve.
To me it sounded like: When bts kicks in its over-enriching, what can i do to reduce this?
It is not overenriching. Look at the log. It is holding 920C and to hold 920C with the boost he is requesting it needs 0.65 lambda.
If it was "overenriching", then the EGT would drop, but it is not dropping.

If he reduces the ATR action, then the EGT will just rise uncontrollably until he melts a piston or drops a valve.

Yes as I said I can see two options.
Reduce ATR
Enable BTS fueling.
both wrong.
Your only option is to reduce the amount of boost and add ignition timing, and make it richer to start with.
Add 1.5-3 degrees, reduce boost by 0.1 bar. Set lambda already from LAMFA to 0.79 or so from 5000 rpm and 0.78 after 6000 rpm. Increase timing as much as possible.

The reason it goes to 0.65 is because even with 0.65 it can't reduce the EGT. There is too little reaction to adding the fuel, EGT keeps climbing.

Your problem is not ATR, your problem is that you are desperately trying to put a hole in your piston and the ECU is doing it's best to prevent it.
The average temperature is 920, I am sure cylinder 3 is already past 1000C with the knock retard on top. You want to test the melting point?

Also K04 turbine is rated for 920C continuous, it is not rated for 950C. I mean, probably it won't get damaged immediately, but this is manufacturer rating. 920C ATR is just fine.
BTS is mostly not needed, you need less boost, more timing to prevent getting to this point.

It's amazing how people are so good at computers these days but don't understand jack shit about the combustion process. It's an engine with explosions inside, better learn how they work.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2022, 11:43:54 AM by prj » Logged

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rogerius
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« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2022, 01:11:45 PM »

First before I say anything. Do you guys understand that richer lambda = lower EGT?
Do you understand that it is already at 920C and even running minimum possible lambda EGT is going up past 920C?
Do you understand that if you remove ATR or kill it's reaction, this will just slow down the speed at which it reaches minimum lambda, and there will just be even more temperature overshoot?
Do you understand that EGT is not an infinite number? Do you understand that you can melt pistons with too high EGT? Or damage the turbo?

If you do, then WTF are you guys doing?
It is not overenriching. Look at the log. It is holding 920C and to hold 920C with the boost he is requesting it needs 0.65 lambda.
If it was "overenriching", then the EGT would drop, but it is not dropping.

If he reduces the ATR action, then the EGT will just rise uncontrollably until he melts a piston or drops a valve.
both wrong.
Your only option is to reduce the amount of boost and add ignition timing, and make it richer to start with.
Add 1.5-3 degrees, reduce boost by 0.1 bar. Set lambda already from LAMFA to 0.79 or so from 5000 rpm and 0.78 after 6000 rpm. Increase timing as much as possible.

The reason it goes to 0.65 is because even with 0.65 it can't reduce the EGT. There is too little reaction to adding the fuel, EGT keeps climbing.

Your problem is not ATR, your problem is that you are desperately trying to put a hole in your piston and the ECU is doing it's best to prevent it.
The average temperature is 920, I am sure cylinder 3 is already past 1000C with the knock retard on top. You want to test the melting point?

Also K04 turbine is rated for 920C continuous, it is not rated for 950C. I mean, probably it won't get damaged immediately, but this is manufacturer rating. 920C ATR is just fine.
BTS is mostly not needed, you need less boost, more timing to prevent getting to this point.

It's amazing how people are so good at computers these days but don't understand jack shit about the combustion process. It's an engine with explosions inside, better learn how they work.

superb lesson.Thank you!
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yessmen
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« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2022, 02:38:55 PM »

If you do, then WTF are you guys doing?
It is not overenriching. Look at the log. It is holding 920C and to hold 920C with the boost he is requesting it needs 0.65 lambda.
If it was "overenriching", then the EGT would drop, but it is not dropping.
This log was test for TABGSS=850° the result was much worse than original settings as you can see

Your only option is to reduce the amount of boost and add ignition timing, and make it richer to start with.
Add 1.5-3 degrees, reduce boost by 0.1 bar. Set lambda already from LAMFA to 0.79 or so from 5000 rpm and 0.78 after 6000 rpm. Increase timing as much as possible.
Thats not bad advice BUT.. I tried reduce boost to only 1 bar and timing was about 22° and the EGTs were ONLY about 50°C less!

Also K04 turbine is rated for 920C continuous, it is not rated for 950C. I mean, probably it won't get damaged immediately, but this is manufacturer rating. 920C ATR is just fine.
BTS is mostly not needed, you need less boost, more timing to prevent getting to this point.
Another missinfo, original stock BAM file goes LAMFA 0.95 and original TABGSS=920°C when ATR kick in so 920°C+ is normal EGT temperature K04-023 and car works as designed.
(Of course its not ideal but no damage instantly!)
ey work.
[/quote]
No help from you, thanks!
In the end I was succesful to finally found solution for BTS and its start to work on my file after some modification. And the result? The EGTs are around 850°C-900°C maximum!! With the same boost/timing! 5th gear highway RUN!
Now I can test some different values KFLBTS enrichment and results will post some logs.
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prj
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« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2022, 02:17:03 AM »

This log was test for TABGSS=850° the result was much worse than original settings as you can see
Thats not bad advice BUT.. I tried reduce boost to only 1 bar and timing was about 22° and the EGTs were ONLY about 50°C less!
No logs, so I call BS on this. Also the important part of the advice was to set the fueling richer before hitting EGT limit.
Quote
Another missinfo, original stock BAM file goes LAMFA 0.95 and original TABGSS=920°C when ATR kick in so 920°C+ is normal EGT temperature K04-023 and car works as designed.
(Of course its not ideal but no damage instantly!)
BW rates the factory turbine at 920C continuous. This is why TABGSS is set to 920C. It can spike above it for a short moment, but continuous rating is set at that, and it is exactly matching what is in the file. The never exceed rating on them is 980C.
Doesn't sound like you understand what a PID is or how ATR works. It will always try to limit lambda to that value, and it will add as much fuel as it needs to accomplish the goal.
Quote
In the end I was succesful to finally found solution for BTS and its start to work on my file after some modification. And the result? The EGTs are around 850°C-900°C maximum!! With the same boost/timing! 5th gear highway RUN!
Now I can test some different values KFLBTS enrichment and results will post some logs.
All you did was set lambda richer before it hits the EGT limit - exactly what I said. Whether you do that through BTS or lamfa does not make any difference. If you make a longer pull you will hit exactly same problem eventually, just later, of course question is how late is relevant.
Consider also the fact that the EGT sensor reading is not instant. There is inertia. So when EGT is rising quickly, and you see 850C on sensor, real EGT can already be over 950C. This is why setting lambda richer already at 750C will help the EGT increase.

Actually this is the reason why BTS was made, and why it is used on all newer cars. Because EGT sensor is too slow, and when you reach the target, then it is too late, if you have high hp/liter.
Stock calibration has much lower boost pressure, EGT is never rising this fast, and dumping fuel has a very quick and dramatic effect on the temperature. So they did maximum fuel saving strategy with only ATR control.

You also probably picked 0.81 also just as a pretty number. Since it's completely random and does not correlate to anything. This together with low timing is your main reason for high EGT.
Well, time to learn how to tune, and not just put numbers into spreadsheets. And to find optimal AFR/boost/timing combination you need a dyno.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2022, 02:43:27 AM by prj » Logged

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