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prj
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« Reply #45 on: January 29, 2014, 07:00:40 AM »
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if you change it to 9ms you´ll raise torque ABOUT 21% No, this is not how an ICE works in the real world. Otherwise making huge horsepower would be extremely easy. Correlating load and torque is a fairly pointless excercise. Less talk and more tuning  |
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TCSTigersClaw
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« Reply #46 on: February 03, 2014, 11:35:31 AM »
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a little offtopic but it regards 3.8x ,
does in anyway the ECU limits injector timing @ 16.32 ? I am getting mad with these logs.
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prj
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« Reply #47 on: February 03, 2014, 12:51:47 PM »
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You are probably hitting max load, not injection timing.
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eliotroyano
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« Reply #48 on: February 03, 2014, 02:27:08 PM »
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PRJ and OverSpeed I really appreciate your help, experience, knowledge and tricks with us. As you know the main problem with this old Motronic is that we don't have to much documentation. In other worlds with have a lot of variables (WinOLS Damos/MapPack constants, maps, etc...) but we don't know exactly the formulas (Motronic Funktionsrahmen docs) to know which variables are computed to give a result. Well at least we all have some guess or estimation about it.
From your comments (thanks for that) we know that these ECU computes LOAD = MAFLIN(MAF_VOLTAGE)/RPM*K as injection time for lambda =1 or in other words cylinder filling, knowing that these old ECUs doesn't have an explicit torque model in it.
Then how we know what MAP/Contanst/etc...do what in terms of LOAD (ms/Umdr) as a result (Z) or as a variable (X or Y) using the axis nomenclature. That ways how do you know a MAP or Constant manage fuelling (injector pulse as ms), load as (ms/Umdr) or N75 as solenoid pulse (ms).
I appreciate your tips with that.
Regards,
Elio
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prj
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« Reply #49 on: February 03, 2014, 03:04:24 PM »
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I fully disassembled M2.x, labelled every subroutine, function, knock control, boost control, ignition, fuel, maf etc.
M3.x is very similar to it, so this is how I know all this.
You need to dial in your MAF curve and then scale the MAF and injectors at the same time using FGAT0 and KHFM until you stop hitting 100% load with bigger turbo.
KFLF is your main fuel correction map on this ECU.
KFZW is timing map.
You also must calibrate the pilot duty cycle maps for the turbo.
After you're done, you are going to need to do all the cold start factors and cold start maps, as your FGAT0 and load is fubar now.
And after that it will work perfectly fine.
I have a customer with a car with GT28RS and 1.7 bar flat to redline with a R32 MAF and fully controlled boost by the ECU without any issues.
It's been running fine for a long time now.
Assembly knowledge helps. German knowledge helps and knowing how these ECU's work helps a lot too.
But really, compared to ME7, these things are trivial. But of course, IMO you need an emulator to tune this properly.
Without an emulator (flashing blah blah) is extremely time consuming, as you need to make a huge amount of changes... The Moates Roadrunner works great.
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« Last Edit: February 03, 2014, 03:06:03 PM by prj »
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overspeed
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« Reply #51 on: February 03, 2014, 08:45:43 PM »
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1 - LOAD = MAF_VOLTAGE/RPM*KHFM
2 - MAF_Voltage x K1 = Power (that´s the same way Bosch know torque in ME7)
3 - Power = Torque x RPM x K2
from 1 and 2: LOAD = Power/( K1 x KHFM x RPM)
from 3: LOAD = (Torque x RPM x K2) / (K1 x KHFM x RPM)
LOAD = Torque x (K2/(K1 xKHFM))
If You call (K2/(K1 x KHFM)) = K
LOAD = TORQUE x K
Just Math pal...
Power/RPM = Torque
Torque = K x Load
just math, but forget... that´s only my blablablá again...
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TCSTigersClaw
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« Reply #52 on: February 04, 2014, 12:44:48 AM »
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You are probably hitting max load, not injection timing.
That`s what I am talking about (its always better with loggs huh ? ) It is obviously tuned ,specified load @ 11,6 from 2.400 rpm ,actual load is struggling and lots of Knock Retardation. But what about Injectors ? They are stuck at 16.32 . |
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« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 12:53:00 AM by TCSTigersClaw »
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VAG cars newbie tuner |
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prj
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« Reply #53 on: February 04, 2014, 05:15:38 AM »
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1 - LOAD = MAF_VOLTAGE/RPM*KHFM
2 - MAF_Voltage x K1 = Power (that´s the same way Bosch know torque in ME7)
3 - Power = Torque x RPM x K2
from 1 and 2: LOAD = Power/( K1 x KHFM x RPM)
from 3: LOAD = (Torque x RPM x K2) / (K1 x KHFM x RPM)
LOAD = Torque x (K2/(K1 xKHFM))
If You call (K2/(K1 x KHFM)) = K
LOAD = TORQUE x K
Just Math pal...
Power/RPM = Torque
Torque = K x Load
just math, but forget... that´s only my blablablá again...
Part of me wonders if you have ever seen an internal combustion engine inside. With your logic an engine would always make more torque with more load. But this is not the case in the real world. |
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overspeed
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« Reply #54 on: February 04, 2014, 05:24:27 AM »
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As far as I know we were talking about DESIRED LOAD, not if the engine, turbo, etc etc can achieve this value (ACTUAL LOAD)... I can ask a monkey to jump over the moon... he can´t do it (DESIRED JUMP >ACTUAL JUMP)... but If I ask... and he will jump as high as he can... if I ask the monkey to jump 3...4 or 5 inch he can do it... the job is done (DESIRED JUMP = ACTUAL JUMP). Simple like that... But, I don´t know anything about engine or tuning... or even how a management system work, don´t listen to me...  |
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prj
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« Reply #55 on: February 04, 2014, 06:41:35 AM »
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As far as I know we were talking about DESIRED LOAD, not if the engine, turbo, etc etc can achieve this value (ACTUAL LOAD)... I am talking about actual load. Do you really think that more actual load is always more torque? Have you ever tuned a high powered car on dyno? Or any application with more than 300hp/liter? |
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overspeed
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« Reply #56 on: February 04, 2014, 04:56:34 PM »
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overspeed
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« Reply #57 on: February 04, 2014, 05:02:16 PM »
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let´s make a deal... You said what you believe it´s the true, I said what I believe it´s true... when some Bosch engineer state one is wrong or rigth we start talking these topic again.
I´m not here to prove anything, just learn and teach one or two things if I can...
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overspeed
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« Reply #59 on: February 05, 2014, 03:58:13 AM »
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Page 52 shall make things clear:
"A linear relationship between torque
curve and throttle-valve angle is also obtained,
with improved sensitivity at the
accelerator pedal"
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