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Author Topic: Compressor map vs Fuel type vs Air temp  (Read 13006 times)
masterj
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« on: June 19, 2012, 11:10:37 AM »

Hello, fellow tuners!  Smiley
So I've found K03 compressor map and started to work with it but since car is running E85 I'm not sure if I should follow it or maybe the turbo can push more boost eficiently on E85?
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matchew
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« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2012, 11:29:10 AM »

Hello, fellow tuners!  Smiley
So I've found K03 compressor map and started to work with it but since car is running E85 I'm not sure if I should follow it or maybe the turbo can push more boost eficiently on E85?

I'm not sure that I read that right!

Your asking if changing fuels will alter the efficiency of something that pumps air?
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 11:31:46 AM by matchew » Logged
masterj
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« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2012, 11:39:51 AM »

I'm not sure that I read that right!

Your asking if changing fuels will alter the efficiency of something that pumps air?

in other words, if E85 which produces cooling effect in cylinders will extend the K03 efficiency range? (or even simpler: Can I let let my turbo boost upto higher RPMs before lowering it when on E85)
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 11:41:29 AM by masterj » Logged

masterj
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« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2012, 12:35:10 PM »

Also I have revese-converted pressure ratio to boost and found out that K03 can push max 1.92BAR @ efficiency 70%?? (please check image attached, pressure ratio around 2.9 & 159 CFM)

Conversion done this way:

PRESSURE = (14.7 + BOOST_PSI) / 14.7
PRESSURE * 14.7 = 14.7 + BOOST_PSI
BOOST_PSI = (PRESSURE * 14.7) - 14.7
BOOST_BAR = BOOST_PSI * 0.0689475728

Am I right?
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 12:55:23 PM by masterj » Logged

masterj
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« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2012, 02:12:55 PM »

Using very cool calculator @ http://www.lovehorsepower.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=35:compressor-flow-map-calculator&catid=8:mr2-helpful-stuff&Itemid=49 I have managed to update K03 map with some useful data (see image attached). I hope it will help someone besides me Wink
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littco
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« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2012, 02:16:17 PM »

firstly your on the surge line, secondly i dont think you stand a chance of getting a k03 on your engine into that effecency area, and why would you, its probably the least effecient part of the map.
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masterj
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« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2012, 02:22:31 PM »

Small mistake on my compressor map (new version attached)
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masterj
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« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2012, 02:25:15 PM »

firstly your on the surge line, secondly i dont think you stand a chance of getting a k03 on your engine into that effecency area, and why would you, its probably the least effecient part of the map.

If I understand map correctly then this point is at the 70 percent efficiency "island". Or am I wrong?
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masterj
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« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2012, 02:46:59 PM »

OK, so I've compiled my boost table using some math... What do you think?
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littco
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« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2012, 02:50:01 PM »

Yes it is 70% but that is assuming you can get the compressor to get there in the first place.
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littco
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« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2012, 02:52:00 PM »

24psi @ 2k?
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masterj
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« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2012, 02:58:28 PM »

24psi @ 2k?

Yes, this is ignoring real life factors, I would log my actual boost and see deviation between requested and actual ant then fix this Wink
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 03:03:30 PM by masterj » Logged

nyet
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« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2012, 04:15:46 PM »

1) the s4wiki has had the k03 compressor map from the beginning
2) ecuxplot can plot pr vs flow
3) everybody loves pushing k03/k04s to the surge/overspin lines, damn the efficiency islands.

not sure why 3) happens as much as it does, but there you go
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masterj
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« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2012, 02:47:50 PM »

1) the s4wiki has had the k03 compressor map from the beginning
2) ecuxplot can plot pr vs flow
3) everybody loves pushing k03/k04s to the surge/overspin lines, damn the efficiency islands.

not sure why 3) happens as much as it does, but there you go

Yes, I have used the s4wiki compressor map... Also, I'm not going over the surge line, keeping everything within ~70% of efficiency (except for very low rpm) but maxing out this island to the limits...
My main question still is unanswered. So E85 effects turbo possibilities or not? Those RPM lines were calculated using 1.8T engine size and, if I'm not mistaken, regular fuel. Wouldn't they be different for E85?

P.S>
Pr = (14.7 + Boost_in_psi) / 14.7 is the pressure ratio. What is this number 14.7? Stoich AFR?

if this is AFR then whole CFM formula should get different results for E85:
CFM = (L x RPM x VE x Pr) / 5660

Where L = engine capacity in liters
RPM = maximum engine speed (we'll adjust this later)
VE = engine volumetric efficiency.  From A. Graham Bell's book Forced Induction Performance Tuning some good values for VE are:
Stock 2-valve = 85%
Stock 4-valve = 90%
Street modified = 93%
Competition = 105%
Pr = pressure ratio
« Last Edit: June 21, 2012, 03:27:37 PM by masterj » Logged

TheDSI
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« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2012, 03:27:39 PM »

IAT realy depends on your ic and compressor efficiency .

turbo possibilities are not dependent to fuel type but boost capabilities can  .
in some case you are limited by EGT, and the knock resistence of E85 can, in those case, let you raise the boost .

s4/rs4 K03/K04 are not the same as 1.8t k03/k04 .
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