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Author Topic: Aggressive Cams and Idle Pid  (Read 5380 times)
aef
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« on: December 13, 2023, 01:30:52 AM »

Hi,

Switched to Catcams 1013658 with 1.3mm and 0.95 lift all measured and set according to the datasheet.
I turned of VVT on low load.
I increased my idle RPM to 960.
I still have a dancing ignition angle and the engine is sounding like a mazda rotor.
I already played with KFMRES, KFMRESK, KFMSNWDK and KFWDKMSN without success.
I couldnt find any existing topic regarding this.

Can this be fixed with kfzw and kfzwop?

My thread is here http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=22084.msg163568#msg163568
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aef
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« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2023, 01:41:50 AM »

Hi,

I understood where this is coming from. Correct me if I'm wrong.
My engine produces less vacuum with the new cams.
This results in a bit higher fuel pressure and in combination with the bosch 980cc the ecu is trying to reach lambda 1.
The throttle is open a bit more than it was with my stock cams to reach lambda1 (needs more air because there is already more fuel).

I think the ignition is dancing to keep the rpm at 960. Usually it would be higher with this throttle position?

That i dont understand is why the injector opening time is not the lowerst possible 1.70ms?

I worked abit on the fkkvs and its alittle bit better now but noch much. As you can see lambdacontrol has less work and injector time is in a smaller window.
 
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prj
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« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2023, 01:51:44 AM »

Hi,

I understood where this is coming from. Correct me if I'm wrong.
My engine produces less vacuum with the new cams.
This results in a bit higher fuel pressure and in combination with the bosch 980cc the ecu is trying to reach lambda 1.
The throttle is open a bit more than it was with my stock cams to reach lambda1 (needs more air because there is already more fuel).

This is complete bullshit, sorry.
Mixture control is done using injection timing... Opening the throttle increases RPM immediately.

Your nr1 problem is that your TVUB and ESUK are wrong for the injectors.
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aef
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« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2023, 02:13:34 AM »

Hi,

TVUB is
8,10,12,14,16
2.2987
1.6987
1.2987
1.0987
1.0000

according to http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=12470.msg139968#msg139968
and injectors where changed months before the cams were changed.

Not one of the 30+ ESUK maps are touched.
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overspeed
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« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2023, 05:38:47 AM »

You can disable KFMRES, rise KFZWMN, Lower KFZW and KFZWOP to keep timing close to lets say 12~15°

Then you may see if this idle setpoint is enough to keep engine stable, and start tuning fuel...

When you are done with fuel, start tuning again with timing
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prj
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« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2023, 05:54:34 AM »

Not one of the 30+ ESUK maps are touched.
And that's the reason why it runs like absolute shit.

Turn off timing adjustment completely, set it to fixed timing and let it adjust throttle only.
Then tune ESUK so that your fuel is not all over the place with changing load.

And also look at my guide for setting TVUB. What you have there now looks completely wrong to me. The real value is much lower in my experience with these injectors.
It can also be due to some injector non-linearity getting encoded.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2023, 05:57:33 AM by prj » Logged

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aef
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« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2023, 04:07:54 PM »

By turn off timing adjustment you both mean the same?
KFZWMN to 12
KFZW to 13
KFZWOP to 14

So that the ignition which I would like to have (13) is inbetween the lower and the upper border? I didnt find any codeword or switch for application of ignition.

I am not sure if I fully understand this http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=20391.0title=
Especially point 6: "Find KRKTE value so that you have more or less 1-2% fuel trim on idle with the hot engine."
Does it mean idle trims in measurement block 32.1 for idle?
Does this whole process work in my case where lambda control is 25% all the time?

Will try to lower my TEMIN (currently 0,4987) they were 0,2987 with the 630cc injectors.
I just found this after i returned home  Cry
Maybe this lower TEMIN will solve my 25% during idle.
I guess I will have to solve lambda control first because otherwise the 32.1 and 32.2 are not robust.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2023, 11:49:18 PM by aef » Logged
prj
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« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2023, 11:37:08 PM »

I don't know what you are doing, set TEMIN to 0.1 and fix your fueling first.

Your entire problem is created by incorrect fueling.
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justinvw2646
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« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2023, 06:10:05 PM »

MVB 32.1=idle, 32.2=partial load
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aef
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« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2023, 03:24:45 PM »

Cant figure it out.

No matter what I do, I always have a high lambda controller of 20-25% during idle in measurement block 1.3.
This is what annoys me the most and I dont understand it. A positiv trim means the ecu enriches to reach programmed lambda.
When I drive the car near idle and at part throttle I can see the PTFT in 32.2 and I can finetune my previously calculated krkte.
I think that my KRKTE is correct because its
1. calculated
2. corrected with the trims after driving
FKKVS is 1 everywhere.
TEMIN/TEMINVA is set to 0.1 because with the calculated (0.24) my idle is even worse
RPM is set to 960.

I tried different TVUB but it didnt change much. Currently I am at 0.80 @ 14v because the idle sounds best with this.
Smaller or larger tvub results in more noise and brap brap brap during idle.

I know that the changes in TVUB have the most influence on low injector pulsewide = idle. 

again: The only thing I changed are the cams.
I did have these 980cc injectors before and never noticed idle missfire or had to raise idle rpm.
I used the bosch datasheet tvub values and the fkkvs had reasonable values.

Two things came to my mind when writing this text:
1. raise rpm even more
2. manipulate FKKVS at idle

Why do I have such an high lambda controller during idle?

Will play with WFRL today.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2023, 02:58:32 AM by aef » Logged
prj
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« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2023, 08:21:54 AM »

Depending on the cams you fitted (not sure why you needed to fit some crazy cams, are you pushing 1000hp or something?) it can be that there is massive overlap already on idle and you're pushing straight air to the exhaust.
In this case any kind of O2 measurement in the exhaust is completely useless and you should turn lambda control off entirely then let it idle and judge the mixture by pulling the plugs and looking at their colour.
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ratosluaf
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« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2023, 01:58:03 AM »

Those cams should come with adjustable wheels so I'd time them differently to reduce overlap. I know some of 1.8t with cams just thrown it recklessly and they cannot go past 400hp because of overlap and EMP.

Also, catcams states:

#order 1013665 / 1003665 for use with VVT tensioner and original pistons
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aef
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« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2023, 02:08:44 AM »

Hi,

first of all thank you to everyone who replies here.

My cams:
http://www.catcams.com/products/camshafts/datasheet.aspx?ENGINE_id=21&CAMSETUP_id=151
I have JE pistons and i measured the cams to valve lift @ TDC: 1.30mm and 0.95mm like described. VVT is OFF for now.


I changed alot yesterday to try and find out. First of all my KRKTE, TEMIN and TVUB is fixed now I hope.
I calculated KRKTE and TEMIN/VA and I used TVUB from the bosch sheet.
I do have missfires with this TVUB but I think it's mainly because of the wall film and the overlap of cams.
For now I have to believe that the bosch TVUB datasheet is correct.
TEMIN/VA is 0.24 calculated and not 0.1 anymore.

I bumped up the WFRL from the ESUK module in parallel like described in the FR page 1005.
So I got a change of 500% @ 18% load and 111% @ 24% of load. During idle my engine is at ~24% load and wallfilm was basically doubled (111%) via my WFRL change.
The engine sounds better and nicer during idle with this change but you cant see much difference in the log because I didnt log misfires.
Ignition angle, throttle angel, lambda, lambda correction, everything is pretty much the same.
Idle Fuel Trim does not change even when load added via powersteering or alternator. That confirms TVUB is okay.

While ESUK is for transition correction and my problem is with stationary/idle I hope I'm on the right path by increasing WFRL even more.

I also played with KFZW and reduced it in 3 steps. The result is a lower peak ignition angle during the brap brap brap.
With the stock KFZW it fluctuates between -8 and +22 degree
With the -5 degree KFZW during idle it fluctuates between -8 and +18 degree  
With the -10 degree KFZW during idle it fluctuates between -8 and +12 degree  
With the -15 degree KFZW during idle it fluctuates between -8 and +7 degree  

My lambda control fluctuates in a window of 0.10.

Planned next steps:
Add fzabg* misfire variables to the log and change WFRL even more. Because I think the misfires beeing less is whats made the engine sound nicer and calmer during idle.

I highly rely on advanced members feedback because i am not familiar with KFZW changed in idle and part throttle area.
I am unsure if the fluctuation and the brap brap brap is because of fuel only or also because of ignition being too advanced with this cams.

thanks in advance
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prj
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« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2023, 02:39:29 AM »

Set fixed ignition angle via appl instead of fighting a million things at once.

You also don't understand TEMIN. TEMIN is the lowest pulsewidth the ECU can calculate, and not a value from a datasheet.
The value in datasheet just says what the minimum pulsewidth is when injector will theoretically open.

Log te_w - if your te_w = TEMIN then you need to lower TEMIN for the ECU to be able to inject less fuel. If not, then changing TEMIN has zero effect.
It's not something you need to tune.
I've set it to 0.1 on all the cars I've ever done without any issues, because it really doesn't matter...
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aef
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« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2024, 08:34:54 AM »

I found the time to test what was recommended.
I've set my ignition to a fixed value of ~8degree and tried different values for the WFRL map.

During idle I have a load of ~24 thats why I used the 24 column in WFRL for orientation. I bumped the whole map up in parallel like described in the FR.
I endet up with a 350% increased value in 24 load. This means the stock value of 27 is multiplied by 4.4 to 120.
This is not the final result. I tried values of 200,300,400,500 and 600 for this 24 load column.
All of this flashing and logging was performed on a parking lot and the car heatsoaked to max IAT of 60degree celsius.

Honestly there is not much difference in the logs with these WFRL changes.
Throttle plate is moving between 3 and 9 degree.
Lambda control is moving between 0.94 and 1.10 and RPM between 840 and 1200.
...while ignition is fixed at 8 degree.

Is there anything i can do fueling wise with maps from the esuk module?
Or do i have to accept the idle with the cam overlap like it is?

TVUB was backed up with the values from the ecumaster emu black wizard and temin is 0.1 like suggested.
With the 350% bump in WFRL and stock dancing ignition the car is able to hold the rmp between 940 and 980 while 960 is requested in the file.
Its not that much brap brap anymore but the lambda control is working hard and ignition is dancing between 22 and -6 like before.

thank you for your feedback
« Last Edit: January 03, 2024, 08:37:10 AM by aef » Logged
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