Pages: [1] 2
Author Topic: Correct MAF in open loop? 1.8t 4b0906018P 0006  (Read 1080 times)
rzyao
Jr. Member
**

Karma: +0/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 45


« on: December 08, 2024, 07:31:32 PM »

Super noob question, but I can't figure out how to correct the MAF signal (similar to what KFKHFM does). Logging requested vs actual lambda (using a wideband sensor) gets me this under load (graph attached). It starts out richer than requested, but then leans out. I'm assuming this has to do with me upscaling my MAF sensor and upgrading the inlet pipe which would throw off the values, but I can't tell anywhere which map I actually change in order to make the open-loop fueling. Looking at logs, my MAF signal seems to linearly increase with RPMs at WOT, so the sensor appears to be reading at least mostly correctly.

Hardware changes from stock:
Frankenturbo F21 w/ bigger inlet pipe
3 inch VR6 MAF (ported MLHFM over from a Jetta bin)
Cone filter (yeah, I know it's worse for power, but I like the noise and my stock airbox wouldn't fit anyways without a lot of trimming my intake)

Fueling system is completely stock.

From what I've found,
LAMFA controls req. AFR
KFLBTS controls req. AFR above a certain calculated EGT
KFKHFM corrects the MAF signal, but the load axis only reaches 126 (request doesn't exceed 127, but actual load hits 160 at WOT)
FKKVS corrects the injector on time, and isn't defined in any XDFs I can find for my ECU, so I can't change it anyways without finding it

The actual requested AFR seems correct, so LAMFA and KFLBTS aren't what I need to change. FKKVS seems like the best map to actually change the fueling, but then I feel like my load would be incorrect as I think the MAF is just reading slightly inaccurately due to different hardware. To me, it seems like I just need to correct the MAF to get my fueling where it needs to be. Do I edit MLHFM? From what I've read typically it's best to just copy MLHFM when swapping a sensor/housing and then use various correction maps to get fueling where it needs to be.

Logged
aef
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +71/-46
Offline Offline

Posts: 1610


« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2024, 02:06:44 AM »

attach the logfile please

your injectors are maxed and/or your fuel pump is weak

If you copy mlhfm from the donor car where the maf itself came from (including housing, diameter untouched) then you are almost good.
not sure why your car goes that rich in first place. you should identify kfkhfm and fkkvs and put in 1s everywhere.

but dont run wot with this fueling. its too lean.
Logged
rzyao
Jr. Member
**

Karma: +0/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 45


« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2024, 07:24:32 AM »

can't attach a log, nefmoto is telling me the "attachment couldn't be saved", so here is a google drive link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZNzEWKPi7hK-KUGoWdELnz-lxj1VeLud/view?usp=sharing

this is a stock tune with just fueling adjustments, is 8 psi enough to max out injectors/pump? my fueling setup is completely stock (2000 A4 1.8t)

according to audizine the injectors are good up until about 8 psi, which is weird since the OTS GIAC tune this car had before was pushing up to 16-18 psi on the same injectors and running about 11.something AFR, but I guess I need new injectors

do you have any pointers on finding FKKVS? I looked using an 018CH file to compare to and couldn't find the axes duplicated anywhere

still not sure, am I supposed to use KFKHFM for WOT corrections? it seems like it's only really intended to be for part load, and it's my understanding that in open loop I need to manually correct the MAF signal in order to make sure the fueling matches the AFR request since the o2 sensor does nothing (no feedback at all)
Logged
nyet
Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +608/-168
Offline Offline

Posts: 12278


WWW
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2024, 10:26:38 AM »

If fueling is bone stock, do all MAF corrections in KFKHFM once MLHFM gets you near zero LTFTs

Turn off LTFTs with NORLA and log your STFTs at many possible load/RPM combinations

https://github.com/nyetwurk/trim-heatmap might help.
Logged

ME7.1 tuning guide
ECUx Plot
ME7Sum checksum
Trim heatmap tool

Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your ex
rzyao
Jr. Member
**

Karma: +0/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 45


« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2024, 11:14:04 AM »

once MLHFM gets you near zero LTFTs

I'm a little confused, everything I've found says to copy MLHFM from whatever came with the MAF being used, then to leave it and tune elsewhere. I also have LTFTs disabled by unplugging the N80, as that's what people seem to do in order to log STFTs. How do I "get near zero LTFT" with MLHFM? Do I need to go in and edit MLHFM in the sections with high output voltage?  If I do need to use KFKHFM to correct at load>126, how do I change values above 126 (highest load column)?
I've been using the heatmap to tune part throttle, it's working great.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2024, 11:16:34 AM by rzyao » Logged
nyet
Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +608/-168
Offline Offline

Posts: 12278


WWW
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2024, 03:21:57 PM »

I'm a little confused, everything I've found says to copy MLHFM from whatever came with the MAF being used, then to leave it and tune elsewhere. I also have LTFTs disabled by unplugging the N80, as that's what people seem to do in order to log STFTs. How do I "get near zero LTFT" with MLHFM? Do I need to go in and edit MLHFM in the sections with high output voltage?  If I do need to use KFKHFM to correct at load>126, how do I change values above 126 (highest load column)?
I've been using the heatmap to tune part throttle, it's working great.

No, just roughly scale ALL of MLHFM until you are close.. don't try to tune individual sections, you did it right.
Logged

ME7.1 tuning guide
ECUx Plot
ME7Sum checksum
Trim heatmap tool

Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your ex
rzyao
Jr. Member
**

Karma: +0/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 45


« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2024, 09:04:59 PM »

No, just roughly scale ALL of MLHFM

That makes way more sense, thanks!

Should I reset KFKHFM back to ones, log LTFTs, and scale MLHFM by that much, then repeating until I can get it nearly correct (and my lambda request matches my actual lambda at WOT) then start adjusting KFKHFM?

Also, since it looks like I need new injectors, and I don't want to clog the forum with even more new topics, could you point me in the direction of KRKTE on my ECU? My definitions all seem to have weird scaling and locations (scaled by 0.002133, and when set to 0.000111, the value is 0.0057 which seems wildly incorrect compared to other files I've explored). I can't find FKKVS either so searching based on being located close by wouldn't help.
Logged
aef
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +71/-46
Offline Offline

Posts: 1610


« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2024, 12:42:54 AM »

add some more variables to your logger to tell if the injectors are maxed out or not. this was just my 1st thougt because of the big deviation.
what i dont understand based on your first log is that your lambda actual is that far off from desired.

have you ever logged the car with the stock maf?
have you changed kfkhfm by alot? havent checked your file.

whenever i have put in s3 or rs4b5 maf's into transversal 1.8ts i 1'ed kfkhfk and copy pasted mlhfm and it was very close to stock.
no such difference between lambda actual and desired.

Logged
rzyao
Jr. Member
**

Karma: +0/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 45


« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2024, 09:06:04 AM »

add some more variables to your logger to tell if the injectors are maxed out or not. this was just my 1st thougt because of the big deviation.
what i dont understand based on your first log is that your lambda actual is that far off from desired.

have you ever logged the car with the stock maf?
have you changed kfkhfm by alot? havent checked your file.

whenever i have put in s3 or rs4b5 maf's into transversal 1.8ts i 1'ed kfkhfk and copy pasted mlhfm and it was very close to stock.
no such difference between lambda actual and desired.

I'll try and get a log with injector duty cycle, are there any other variables I should log? To my knowledge the fuel rail pressure isn't logged so no way to know without hooking up a physical gauge. Should I be looking for injectors >90%?

I started with KFKHFM mostly zeroed, at some points I've needed it to be ~0.8 to get it to the correct AFR

it seems like the entire map is running rich, maybe there's a chance that the MLHFM from the VR6 file was somehow wrong, should I take the advice of someone else and try using the original MAF sensor in the new housing and scale it (like what I see most other people do) and then see what results that gets me?
Logged
gremlin
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +201/-9
Offline Offline

Posts: 679


« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2024, 10:14:43 AM »

My definitions all seem to have weird scaling and locations (scaled by 0.002133, and when set to 0.000111, the value is 0.0057 which seems wildly incorrect compared to other files I've explored).
You can't compare everything mindlessly.
The factor in the ME7.x ECU depends on the raw KRKTE value (8-bit or 16-bit) and the clock frequency on the main processor (MCU)
In your case KRKTE is 8-bit, factor = 0.00213333, location -> 0x18C65
I can't find FKKVS either so searching based on being located close by wouldn't help.

0x1BA58 (16-bit 16x16, factor = 0,000030517578)
Logged
nyet
Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +608/-168
Offline Offline

Posts: 12278


WWW
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2024, 11:42:28 AM »

That makes way more sense, thanks!

Should I reset KFKHFM back to ones, log LTFTs, and scale MLHFM by that much, then repeating until I can get it nearly correct (and my lambda request matches my actual lambda at WOT) then start adjusting KFKHFM?

YES 100% this.

Note that you should throw out all data points where your injectors are above, say, 70% DC

Quote
Also, since it looks like I need new injectors, and I don't want to clog the forum with even more new topics, could you point me in the direction of KRKTE on my ECU? My definitions all seem to have weird scaling and locations (scaled by 0.002133, and when set to 0.000111, the value is 0.0057 which seems wildly incorrect compared to other files I've explored). I can't find FKKVS either so searching based on being located close by wouldn't help.

Do NOT touch injectors until you have KFKHFM in a good place. You don't want to be mapping both MAF and injector changes at the same time.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2024, 11:49:40 AM by nyet » Logged

ME7.1 tuning guide
ECUx Plot
ME7Sum checksum
Trim heatmap tool

Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your ex
rzyao
Jr. Member
**

Karma: +0/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 45


« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2024, 05:17:17 PM »

just roughly scale ALL of MLHFM until you are close

Attached a graph, does this look like my MLHFM is close enough to move on to KFKHFM? My fra_w was at 0.997 and 1.01 in the logs I took today. I'm just a little worried that at lower RPMs the measured lambda is slightly leaner than requested, but I don't know how to adjust that independently of the higher RPM area.

I'm also having an issue where at super low load (clutch in after small pull) I go so rich that the engine stumbles and sometimes stalls, I've seen it hit 10:1. Should I just correct that in KFKHFM?

Also, yeah, I think it's safe to say I need bigger injectors
Logged
nyet
Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +608/-168
Offline Offline

Posts: 12278


WWW
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2024, 09:54:30 PM »

I'm also having an issue where at super low load (clutch in after small pull) I go so rich that the engine stumbles and sometimes stalls, I've seen it hit 10:1. Should I just correct that in KFKHFM?

are you sure it is going rich and not idle torque res? if so, yes, at very low loads, if you ditch the airbox you'll see all sorts of wonky MAF nonlinearities. This is why airbox is the best for drivability.
Logged

ME7.1 tuning guide
ECUx Plot
ME7Sum checksum
Trim heatmap tool

Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your ex
rzyao
Jr. Member
**

Karma: +0/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 45


« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2024, 11:33:16 AM »

it seems like it's going rich because I can see my AFR gauge showing something like 11:1, then it stumbles. Haven't logged timing to see if it's idle torque. Should I just try and fix it in KFKHFM? I think that's the dedicated map for correcting non linearities
Logged
nyet
Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +608/-168
Offline Offline

Posts: 12278


WWW
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2024, 12:05:08 PM »

it seems like it's going rich because I can see my AFR gauge showing something like 11:1, then it stumbles. Haven't logged timing to see if it's idle torque. Should I just try and fix it in KFKHFM? I think that's the dedicated map for correcting non linearities


Sort of.. KFKHFM is more for steady state fueling with very slow RPM/load changes. If you are going rich off throttle, thats a different map (decel fueling) since it's a sudden change in RPM/load
Logged

ME7.1 tuning guide
ECUx Plot
ME7Sum checksum
Trim heatmap tool

Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your ex
Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Page created in 0.023 seconds with 17 queries. (Pretty URLs adds 0s, 0q)