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Author Topic: Single turbo 2.7T running on 7.1.1 (R ECU) question about mono lambda situation  (Read 15583 times)
NOTORIOUS VR
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I don't know if my mine is playing tricks on me or not, but I remember when Snow Trooper was tuning this single turbo there was some issue with having both primary O2's in the same downpipe because the ECU is looking for differences between the banks since the ECU is configured for stereo lambda.

Of course on a single turbo car this is an issue, so I believe back then Snow Trooper got around this by feeding one bank a slightly modified signal from his WB narrowband output to one of the banks O2 sensor inputs.

But for some reason I want to say that I've stumbled upon someone else running a single setup on here that has this problem resolved and running mono lambda? 

The search on this forum kinda blows and haven't been able to come up with anything other then Snow Troopers original fix (here: http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php/topic,722.msg6469.html#msg6469 )

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated!
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The ECU never looks at any difference between banks.
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Snow Trooper
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Yes it does, if they are the same it tries to separate them by trimming one more lean and the other more rich until its happy.  With both sensors in one pipe or a split signal from one it will trim until one is -25% and the other is +25%

Phila_dot created a hack to feed trims from one sensor that works perfect, but if your fuel rail doesn't get evenly fed from both banks it can be iffy because the second bank fed will be lean.

My professional suggestion for the safest setup is to run both factory sensors pre turbo so trims stay accurate.
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NOTORIOUS VR
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The ECU never looks at any difference between banks.

That is not what Snow Trooper found... did you read that thread (specifically the OP)?

Either way it seems like phila_dot has come up with a working solution that ignores the 2nd O2 sensor completely now.

More info here: http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=2112.180
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NOTORIOUS VR
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My professional suggestion for the safest setup is to run both factory sensors pre turbo so trims stay accurate.

My buddy who's car I am doing this on thought about doing this, I was just cautious about O2 life considering the high EGT's pre-turbine.

pic of the setup in an 03 A6 avant, went back to the stock IM for now since the TB was too far forward with the custom SMIM:

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Yes it does, if they are the same it tries to separate them by trimming one more lean and the other more rich until its happy.  With both sensors in one pipe or a split signal from one it will trim until one is -25% and the other is +25%
No it does not. This is not why this happens.
It never compares the banks, it never compares the trims to the banks and it never tries to separate anything.

The thread where the hack was developed contains information on why this happens. Perhaps you should re-read it.
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Snow Trooper
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The life of the sensor will be shortened depending on what kind of egts you see.  A bit of a trade off but in the end the sensors aren't that expensive.  So far nothing else works as reliable or safe.
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prj
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That is not what Snow Trooper found... did you read that thread (specifically the OP)?
The only thing he found is the symptom (banks going 25% in opposite direction). His explanation is wrong.
Repeating it won't make it true.
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Snow Trooper
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No it does not. This is not why this happens.
It never compares the banks, it never compares the trims to the banks and it never tries to separate anything.

The thread where the hack was developed contains information on why this happens. Perhaps you should re-read it.

Perhaps you should stfu, I'm not in the mood for your snarky bullshit today.  Post up factual evidence or stop talking.  I have read the thread.  I understand what happens.  Fact is they trim away from each other if they get the same signal or one that is basically the same.

How many single turbo or single downpipe path me7.1 2.7t cars have you seen let alone touched?
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prj
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Perhaps you should stfu, I'm not in the mood for your snarky bullshit today.  Post up factual evidence or stop talking.  I have read the thread.  I understand what happens.  Fact is they trim away from each other if they get the same signal or one that is basically the same.

How many single turbo or single downpipe path me7.1 2.7t cars have you seen let alone touched?

I will continue calling you on stuff that you pass on for fact, which you are wrong about.
I did post why this happens. If you do not have the mental capability to understand it, I am sorry for you.

If you take any two feedback loops which go through an amplitude and expect a separate feedback signal for each loop, then merge the signals together and feed it back to both adjusters, then eventually one will max out at + and the other will max out at -.
You don't need ME7, you don't need an engine or lambdas to understand this. It is the basics of how feedback loops work.

You keep saying the ECU compares the banks. At no point does it ever do this, which is why the FR does not state that it does either, and why you can not support what you say with the FR.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 10:32:52 AM by prj » Logged

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NOTORIOUS VR
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^^ Interesting... although I am not in any way familiar with feedback loops, etc...

Do you have a solution for this?

What are the thoughts about running the O2's pre-turbine in the up-pipes in regards to EGT's effecting longevity of the sensors?

I would also really appreciate if you and Snow Trooper could refrain from getting at each others throats, that helps nothing.  I know it's hard sometimes when not all of the angles have been covered and not everything is easily explained.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 10:41:02 AM by NOTORIOUS VR » Logged

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I agree. the sniping isn't productive.
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Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your ex
Snow Trooper
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I will continue calling you on stuff that you pass on for fact, which you are wrong about.
I did post why this happens. If you do not have the mental capability to understand it, I am sorry for you.

If you take any two feedback loops which go through an amplitude and expect a separate feedback signal for each loop, then merge the signals together and feed it back to both adjusters, then eventually one will max out at + and the other will max out at -.
You don't need ME7, you don't need an engine or lambdas to understand this. It is the basics of how feedback loops work.

You keep saying the ECU compares the banks. At no point does it ever do this, which is why the FR does not state that it does either, and why you can not support what you say with the FR.

I'm not a computer wizard like you obviously are so feel awesome.  I have always stated I barely am capable of what I do in a computer sense.  I do however understand engines on a better level than many, or so I have been told.  My theories, hypothesized instructions based of testing facts are only posted as facts when that's how I understand them after REAL WORLD results.  Only share what I know.

You and I have the same end conclusion and answer, they trim away and are different.  Thanks for being a pita.
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prj
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^^ Interesting... although I am not in any way familiar with feedback loops, etc...

Do you have a solution for this?

What are the thoughts about running the O2's pre-turbine in the up-pipes in regards to EGT's effecting longevity of the sensors?

I would also really appreciate if you and Snow Trooper could refrain from getting at each others throats, that helps nothing.  I know it's hard sometimes when not all of the angles have been covered and not everything is easily explained.

The solution is already posted by phila_dot.

The fix is to force bank 1 trims on bank 2 and copy over the lambda voltages from bank 1 to bank 2.
That way it won't try to use a separate trim for bank 2.

Basically you can't trim both banks separately when you only have 1 signal which is both banks merged together.
So you have to trim them both by the same amount.

Look at sy_stervk and sy_stersy in the FR to see how it is handled from factory.
In particular, on our cars sy_stersy is false, but you want to set it to true. Of course it is a compile time constant so code has to be modified.
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prj
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I'm not a computer wizard like you obviously are so feel awesome.  I have always stated I barely am capable of what I do in a computer sense.  I do however understand engines on a better level than many, or so I have been told.
Unlike you, if I am not sure about something I don't open my mouth. There is a distinct line between remarking observations and making up explanations, trying to pass them off as fact and then trying to pull "authority" when they are questioned. The former is helpful, the latter not so much, and you seem to cross this line without hesitation.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 10:50:03 AM by prj » Logged

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