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Author Topic: RS4 B5 running  too rich  (Read 14500 times)
kristsm
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« on: March 12, 2013, 02:34:09 AM »




Hello everyone!

The problem is that our RS4 B5 is running so rich as rear bumper gets black after few pulls and it smells very gasoline like@idle Wink

It also has very unfriendly L/100km figures, almost 25L+ per 100km when cruising at 100km/h.

Checked our MAF / O2 readings with VAG.COM  , then compared to friends RS4 B5 readings  and  this is what we came up with:

MAF readings @idle@90C – both cars have the same readings  ~4.5 g/s , so it seems MAF sensor is in working condition.

IAT readings @idle@90C – both cars have the same readings  ~40C , so it seems IAT sensor is in working condition.

Here comes the nightmare:

Pre cat o2 readings @idle@90C (our car) = 0.815 - 0.87V , never goes lower than 0.8V (too damn rich);

Pre cat o2 readings @idle@90C (friend’s car) = fluctuates between 0.1V-0.6V (normal situation for narrow band o2 sensor showing stoich air-fuel I suppose)

Group 033 O2 sensor  Diag status readings @idle@90C (our car) = 0% , never ever changes.

Group 033 O2 sensor Diag status readings @idle@90C (friend’s car) = fluctuates between -2.3% and 0.8%

Group 078 Air mass (g/s) sec.air.inj.   @idle@90C (our car) = -100% , never ever changes.

Group 078 Air mass (g/s) sec.air.inj.   @idle@90C (friend’s car) = -3.1% , never ever changes.

Thermostat and CLT sensor were replaced with OEM new ones few weeks ago.

Engine does not throw any “fuel trim too rich” or “o2 sensor problem” codes, everything is clean even after driving 200km+ trip….

All the coil plugs are black and dirty after inspection.

Haven’t checked  the fuel pressure in the rail (as it’s too time consuming to install T-fitting with gauge), but have never heard of FPR’s to go bad. I could replace it with other 4BAR FPR for testing purposes.

Any suggestions?

P.S. Please don’t blame tune as our car was running great (10l/100km cruiser) with exactly the same tune before.
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rnagy86
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« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2013, 03:48:52 AM »

What are your LTFT's in group 032? Are you sure you have the same injectors as your friend's car? I would also switch O2 sensors to make sure.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 03:50:59 AM by rnagy86 » Logged
kristsm
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« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2013, 04:25:35 AM »

O2 precat replaced yesterday, still same o2 readings. I have bigger injection, but the car was dyno tuned and had great mpg figures. Will check 032 readings. Any other suggestions?
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phila_dot
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« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2013, 05:53:45 AM »

So your tuning this car with no wideband and only VCDS?

You need to figure out why lambda regulation isn't active.

Get ME7L working.
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kristsm
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« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2013, 06:29:04 AM »

No,  the car was dyno tuned with wb lambda of course and the car behave fine last few years with 560hp/780nm and great mpg figures. I am no expert in ME7 but it seems that something has failed and asking for ECU to be on the rich side even at 90c....

I am pretty 032 Ltft was 0 even driving 300km with putnu touching Code erase.  The engine is not giving any errors btw.
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phila_dot
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« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2013, 12:27:00 PM »

Get ME7L setup and then it shouldn't be too hard to diagnose.

I'm thinking target lambda != 1
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nyet
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« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2013, 12:28:40 PM »

EGTs possibly.
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rnagy86
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« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2013, 12:30:29 PM »

EGTs possibly.
+1, since i disabled mine I always keep forgetting about them...
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ddillenger
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« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2013, 12:47:04 PM »

who did the tune? I've seen files lately that zero the error classes but leave regulation in place Sad
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kristsm
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« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2013, 06:17:14 AM »


Software was done by Turbotec (Finland) I suppose.
 
Ok, EGT's. Thing is the car was tuned with 630cc Siemens injectors (~790cc if running with stock 4BAR FPR), FMIC, RS6 turbos with larger compressor wheels and resonators in place of cats. Everything was running silky smooth after that! Software is software, flashed parameters can't change after time Wink
 
Now there are cats (larger than stock of course) in 3" downpipes , even larger turbos and custom ex. manifolds with larger dia runners. Larger ex. manifold runners and larger turbos can't make more back pressure, they could only reduce it. Cats in place of resonators could make more back pressure in theory. 
But I am pretty sure that this fuel mixture problem was even before the last upgrade.
 
BTW, post cat O2 sensors show approx 0.43V (might be they are disabled in software as that was our wish to remove MIL after replacing original cats with resonators).
 
But then - if they are stock narrow band EGT sensors (measuring EGT only after 945C), and VAG.COM shows that EGT's are not exceeding 945C, then how can we talk about EGT's then?
 
What about Secondary air injection showing -100%? What if N80 or other valve  in vacuum system has failed? Can they influence the mixture so radically?
 
Thanks in advance for everyone  sharing their opinion!
 
Krists
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nyet
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« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2013, 09:54:16 AM »

VAG.COM shows that EGT's are not exceeding 945C, then how can we talk about EGT's then?

EGTs are probably fine then

Quote
 
What about Secondary air injection showing -100%? What if N80 or other valve  in vacuum system has failed? Can they influence the mixture so radically?

Maybe. S4s don't run SAI.. maybe some RS4 tuners can pipe up here.
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Gonzo
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« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2013, 12:37:23 PM »

Trims?
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gregsback
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« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2013, 12:15:34 PM »

I've had the same problem last year (also RS4), there it was the coolant temperature sensor which measured too cold conditions. Therefore the engine (thought it) was in "heat up" phase and therefore very rich.
In case the lambda value is much higher than it target you would have an error (in case sensors are OK). So for me it looks as if the current real lambda is rich as expected from the ECU. that could be linked to a wrong engine temperature measurement...
I have changed the sensor and then life was lean again...
maybe worth to check...

BR
Greg
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nyet
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« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2013, 03:11:35 PM »

OP says "Thermostat and CLT sensor were replaced with OEM new ones few weeks ago" but I agree that is a common culprit.

A log would be informative at this point.
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vdubnation
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« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2013, 06:21:11 PM »

Recently did 10 timing jobs out of them 3 thermostats failed after a week (stuck open) my part supplier said there's a bad oem distributor which they stopped from sourcing not sure if this effects over seas
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