NOTORIOUS VR
Administrator
Hero Member
Karma: +58/-7
 Offline
Posts: 1056
|
 |
« on: April 06, 2013, 07:40:54 AM »
|
|
|
I'm thinking of setting up a group guy as an introduction to these knock ears: http://gizzmousa.com/knock-monitor.htmlSeems like a great piece, not sure how many people here tune outside of Motronic, but if you do have a good set of det cans like this can really help with the big HP stuff. Just wanted to gauge some interest.  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Jason
Hero Member
Karma: +38/-0
Offline
Posts: 500
Breaks everything!
|
|
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2013, 08:54:13 AM »
|
|
|
You should be able to do this much cheaper... Many OEM's do in vehicle tuning using a plain old Shure 58 microphone, as well as some rally teams.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
NOTORIOUS VR
Administrator
Hero Member
Karma: +58/-7
Offline
Posts: 1056
|
|
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2013, 09:25:56 AM »
|
|
|
You should be able to do this much cheaper... Many OEM's do in vehicle tuning using a plain old Shure 58 microphone, as well as some rally teams.
I already have a set of det cans, but they're without a filter.. This being adjustable and with DSP processing, plus the logging software is really nice... not to mention 2 analog outputs for datalogging. It's not really comparable to a basic device you're talking about. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
silentbob
Full Member
Karma: +30/-1
Offline
Posts: 141
|
|
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2013, 12:57:46 AM »
|
|
|
... Many OEM's do in vehicle tuning using a plain old Shure 58 microphone....
What. Who for example? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
prj
|
|
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2013, 08:13:44 AM »
|
|
|
OEM's do knock tuning with in-cylinder pressure transducers. What. Who for example?
Look who's back. Have a look at the 5000mbar megathread |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Jason
Hero Member
Karma: +38/-0
Offline
Posts: 500
Breaks everything!
|
|
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2013, 08:43:33 AM »
|
|
|
OEM's do knock tuning with in-cylinder pressure transducers.
Engine dyno mapping, sure. However I know of one OEM that does in-car tuning with the mic because the pressure transducers are too fragile for in-vehicle work. They also do ALL of their borderline work with the mic. Think low volume "ultra" performance variants of an existing high performance vehicle already in production. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
silentbob
Full Member
Karma: +30/-1
Offline
Posts: 141
|
|
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2013, 11:22:14 AM »
|
|
|
Engine dyno mapping, sure. However I know of one OEM that does in-car tuning with the mic because the pressure transducers are too fragile for in-vehicle work. They also do ALL of their borderline work with the mic.
Think low volume "ultra" performance variants of an existing high performance vehicle already in production.
Don't know what the americans do but I have never seen anything like this here. Typical knock recognition calibration is done on an engine dyno and in the car only the base noise level is checked or fine adjusted. Therefore you have mobile indication systems with especially prepared cylinder heads or pressure sensing spark plugs. You don't even necessarily need an extra position sensor because you can use the 60-2 wheel. Can't imagine this works in OEM quality standards especially on noisy supercharged applications |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
silentbob
Full Member
Karma: +30/-1
Offline
Posts: 141
|
|
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2013, 11:25:06 AM »
|
|
|
Look who's back. Have a look at the 5000mbar megathread I'll have a look. Hopefully I'll have some more time for this stuff the upcoming month  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
NOTORIOUS VR
Administrator
Hero Member
Karma: +58/-7
Offline
Posts: 1056
|
|
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2013, 08:08:17 PM »
|
|
|
Can't imagine this works in OEM quality standards especially on noisy supercharged applications
If you are writing off det cans as a whole, that is a mistake. The human brain is a great detector of knock. I currently use a simple unfiltered electronic det can set that uses a Bosch knock sensor and it works quite well. The unit I've linked to takes that a step further and allows you to tailor the units built in filters and gain control to help with noisy engines/environments. The datalogging and other features are only a bonus IMO and a "nice to have" when you simply don't have the means to have OEM level knock detection setups like in-cyl sensors, etc. Again, this is not generally for people that mainly use OEM ECU's like ME7 etc that have dialed in knock systems. This is more geared to aftermarket ECU tuning, etc. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
silentbob
Full Member
Karma: +30/-1
Offline
Posts: 141
|
|
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2013, 10:02:32 PM »
|
|
|
If you are writing off det cans as a whole, that is a mistake. The human brain is a great detector of knock.
I currently use a simple unfiltered electronic det can set that uses a Bosch knock sensor and it works quite well.
The unit I've linked to takes that a step further and allows you to tailor the units built in filters and gain control to help with noisy engines/environments. The datalogging and other features are only a bonus IMO and a "nice to have" when you simply don't have the means to have OEM level knock detection setups like in-cyl sensors, etc.
Again, this is not generally for people that mainly use OEM ECU's like ME7 etc that have dialed in knock systems. This is more geared to aftermarket ECU tuning, etc.
I totally understand and I don't have experiance with such devices. The thing that makes me wonder is that it is used on OEM applications where you have precise definitions from hardware construction which pressure peaks are considered knock and which not ( like described in the FR). "Knock"you can hear doesn't necessarily mean that it is knock that is considered "dangerous" and makes the ECU adjust ignition. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
NOTORIOUS VR
Administrator
Hero Member
Karma: +58/-7
Offline
Posts: 1056
|
|
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2013, 05:39:24 AM »
|
|
|
I totally understand and I don't have experiance with such devices.
The thing that makes me wonder is that it is used on OEM applications where you have precise definitions from hardware construction which pressure peaks are considered knock and which not ( like described in the FR). "Knock"you can hear doesn't necessarily mean that it is knock that is considered "dangerous" and makes the ECU adjust ignition.
Ah well yes that I do not know, in OEM applications I wouldn't think they use anything like this as claimed above. That said, now a days I'd be surprised if they don't just model everything in a computer completely skipping the cylinder pressure sensors completely for the most part. Or I'm guessing soon that day will come. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
jibberjive
|
|
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2013, 06:55:47 AM »
|
|
|
I think it's going the opposite direction, that in-cylinder pressure transducers are slowly going to become the norm, even for aftermarket tuners, as technology advances and scales up. Kinda like how now the Borg Warner EFR turbo chargers have provisions for relatively affordable turbo RPM sensors, when they used to be a pretty exotic feature in the past. How cool would it be if eventually the 'knock sensor' on your average normal production car is permanently integrated pressure transducers for each cylinder.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
jaymemaurice
Newbie
Karma: +0/-0
Offline
Posts: 14
|
|
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2013, 06:59:28 PM »
|
|
|
How cool would it be if eventually the 'knock sensor' on your average normal production car is permanently integrated pressure transducers for each cylinder.
IMHO that coolness will depend on if the CEL turns on and fails the E-Test when that transducer fails and if I end up having to buy $70 spark plugs. Would be cool though if each cylinders metering, spark, and fuel delivery was controlled completely independently. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Acki
Full Member
Karma: +1/-1
Offline
Posts: 75
|
|
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2013, 05:21:26 AM »
|
|
|
Don't know what the americans do but I have never seen anything like this here. Typical knock recognition calibration is done on an engine dyno and in the car only the base noise level is checked or fine adjusted. Therefore you have mobile indication systems with especially prepared cylinder heads or pressure sensing spark plugs. You don't even necessarily need an extra position sensor because you can use the 60-2 wheel.
Can't imagine this works in OEM quality standards especially on noisy supercharged applications
Word. In this way it's done.  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
NOTORIOUS VR
Administrator
Hero Member
Karma: +58/-7
Offline
Posts: 1056
|
|
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2013, 07:06:32 AM »
|
|
|
I think it's going the opposite direction, that in-cylinder pressure transducers are slowly going to become the norm, even for aftermarket tuners, as technology advances and scales up. Kinda like how now the Borg Warner EFR turbo chargers have provisions for relatively affordable turbo RPM sensors, when they used to be a pretty exotic feature in the past. How cool would it be if eventually the 'knock sensor' on your average normal production car is permanently integrated pressure transducers for each cylinder.
I think we would see Ion Sensing ignition systems in mass production long before pressure sensors considering there are production cars that have Ion sensing. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
