kelesha
Full Member
Karma: +9/-2
 Offline
Posts: 61
|
 |
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2011, 02:28:17 AM »
|
|
|
Don't know, never tried one. I assumed there would be problems around the 0 (1 absolute) bar point but I guess not?
That and i was unsure how to tune speed/density mode (dead MAF) with an underscaled MAP. Can you give any tips?
Tips.....they are simple......buy legal WinOLS and OLS300 emulator, after that all is a lot easier........  But when you spend such(and bigger) amount of money to get knowledge, then its not so reasonable to give anyone that knowledge for free, that's my point of view  Anyway there are not problems or strange codes with 3bar MAP and without MAF if software is made properly |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: April 21, 2011, 01:36:25 PM by Tony@NefMoto »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
nyet
|
|
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2011, 09:49:57 AM »
|
|
|
But when you spend such(and bigger) amount of money to earn knowledge, then its not so reasonably to give anyone that knowledge for free, thats my point of view And if everybody believed that way we'd still live in caves trying to figure out fire. Shrug. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
ME7.1 tuning guideECUx PlotME7Sum checksumTrim heatmap toolPlease do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own. Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your ex
|
|
|
hammersword
Full Member
Karma: +31/-2
Offline
Posts: 136
Revlimit ECU tuning
|
|
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2011, 12:22:53 PM »
|
|
|
they can be done on narrow band with same success I mean that without wideband, ECU cannot control in closed loop AFR in WOT conditions. To do it on a non wideband ECU, the tuner must calibrate injectors with a totally perfections, setting correct lag and all maps related, and keep fuel trims close to zero! Am I right kelesha? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Rick
|
|
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2011, 01:27:33 PM »
|
|
|
I've tuned speed density well over the MAP sensor limit before. If you are running 2 bar, with a 1.5 bar map sensor, then you run a little rich between 1.5 and 2 bar. On ME7 simply use KFLF to add extra fuel at the maximum load sites. I'm actually doing this at the moment because I peg the std S4 MAF at 5000rpm, and it works beautifully. Another way is to increase LAMFA & KFLBTS maps - I don't like doing this though as the EGT calcs alter as the ECU thinks it is richer than it is.
Running rich between 1.5 and 2 bar isn't really a problem. The boost is climbing here so quickly that you will only be between 1.5 and 2 bar for a fraction of a second - once you are at 2 bar it will fuel correctly.
Rick
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
kelesha
Full Member
Karma: +9/-2
Offline
Posts: 61
|
|
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2011, 12:14:06 AM »
|
|
|
I mean that without wideband, ECU cannot control in closed loop AFR in WOT conditions.
To do it on a non wideband ECU, the tuner must calibrate injectors with a totally perfections, setting correct lag and all maps related, and keep fuel trims close to zero!
Am I right kelesha? If ECU need to correct fuel on WOT by wideband feedback then......tune inside is bad. Best way to check fueling is on the dyno with external wideband and disconected from car O2 sensors, thats can be done on both narrow or wide band cars...... And when we talk about fuel trims.......i found myself that sometimes they are useless for high powered cars, you still can have lambda controll but without adaptation, so you can switch off LTFT and use only STFT on wide band cars for safety reasons, on narrow band cars my practise is to remove all 02 sensors so no triming possible at all |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
kelesha
Full Member
Karma: +9/-2
Offline
Posts: 61
|
|
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2011, 12:18:50 AM »
|
|
|
I've tuned speed density well over the MAP sensor limit before. If you are running 2 bar, with a 1.5 bar map sensor, then you run a little rich between 1.5 and 2 bar. .......Running rich between 1.5 and 2 bar isn't really a problem. The boost is climbing here so quickly that you will only be between 1.5 and 2 bar for a fraction of a second - once you are at 2 bar it will fuel correctly. Yes that can be done of course, but why ? Proper way is to use 3bar map for 2bar boost then you can have fine fueling on whole boost ranges.........and one plug and play 3bar MAP for VAG cars cost 40 euro only |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
silentbob
Full Member
Karma: +30/-1
Offline
Posts: 141
|
|
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2011, 01:39:37 AM »
|
|
|
And when we talk about fuel trims.......i found myself that sometimes they are useless for high powered cars, you still can have lambda controll but without adaptation, so you can switch off LTFT and use only STFT on wide band cars for safety reasons, on narrow band cars my practise is to remove all 02 sensors so no triming possible at all Can you explain that a bit more detailed? What does adaptation has to do with the power level of a car? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
nyet
|
|
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2011, 12:26:23 PM »
|
|
|
one plug and play 3bar MAP for VAG cars cost 40 euro only Is that MAP on this list? http://s4wiki.com/wiki/MAP#Bosch |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
ME7.1 tuning guideECUx PlotME7Sum checksumTrim heatmap toolPlease do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own. Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your ex
|
|
|
kelesha
Full Member
Karma: +9/-2
Offline
Posts: 61
|
|
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2011, 12:15:59 AM »
|
|
|
Yes of course, plug and play 3bar MAP is with 051C number |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
kelesha
Full Member
Karma: +9/-2
Offline
Posts: 61
|
|
« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2011, 12:22:12 AM »
|
|
|
Can you explain that a bit more detailed?
What does adaptation has to do with the power level of a car?
simple, if LTFT is adapted not close to zero then is mess on WOT fueling and reduce engine performance by lean or rich condition...........if the car have wideband lambda controll then it can compensate fueling, but that is safety function and sometimes even its not sufficient and engine can goes on limp mode from incorect fueling and reached limits of lambda controll range...... |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
hammersword
Full Member
Karma: +31/-2
Offline
Posts: 136
Revlimit ECU tuning
|
|
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2011, 06:07:28 AM »
|
|
|
I mean that without wideband, ECU cannot control in closed loop AFR in WOT conditions.
To do it on a non wideband ECU, the tuner must calibrate injectors with a totally perfections, setting correct lag and all maps related, and keep fuel trims close to zero!
Am I right kelesha? If ECU need to correct fuel on WOT by wideband feedback then......tune inside is bad. Best way to check fueling is on the dyno with external wideband and disconected from car O2 sensors, thats can be done on both narrow or wide band cars...... And when we talk about fuel trims.......i found myself that sometimes they are useless for high powered cars, you still can have lambda controll but without adaptation, so you can switch off LTFT and use only STFT on wide band cars for safety reasons, on narrow band cars my practise is to remove all 02 sensors so no triming possible at all Yes you are right, I am getting used to calibrate injectors as 830cc or 1000cc without front O2 or deactivate for the tuning procedure LTFT and STFT. When I say that a MAFless is not the best on non wideband, I mean that you have not the safety feature of closing TP if the AFR is quite leaner from Lambda Target which we set... I am not talking for dragster cars that need only WOT. I am talking for example for a classic family car 1.8T which is 500hp and the owner want to do travels with it. So, I usually make them work with both MAF and MAFless options. Of course on drag cars you don't need almost anything on the car as torque model, MAF and O2 sensors etc! |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
kelesha
Full Member
Karma: +9/-2
Offline
Posts: 61
|
|
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2011, 07:22:27 AM »
|
|
|
When I say that a MAFless is not the best on non wideband, I mean that you have not the safety feature of closing TP if the AFR is quite leaner from Lambda Target which we set... Narrow band cars have continuous lean safety feature too........but funny is that most users here won't believe that  I am talking for example for a classic family car 1.8T which is 500hp and the owner want to do travels with it. Car with 500hp from 1.8T engine is all other, but not "classic family car"..........  Of course on drag cars you don't need almost anything on the car as torque model, MAF and O2 sensors etc!
If you retain ME7 then is best to run with torque model enabled even on drag or other racing cars, if you disable torque model then you kill 70% of your ECU |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
hammersword
Full Member
Karma: +31/-2
Offline
Posts: 136
Revlimit ECU tuning
|
|
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2011, 02:40:46 PM »
|
|
|
When I say that a MAFless is not the best on non wideband, I mean that you have not the safety feature of closing TP if the AFR is quite leaner from Lambda Target which we set... Narrow band cars have continuous lean safety feature too........but funny is that most users here won't believe that I am talking for example for a classic family car 1.8T which is 500hp and the owner want to do travels with it. Car with 500hp from 1.8T engine is all other, but not "classic family car".......... Of course on drag cars you don't need almost anything on the car as torque model, MAF and O2 sensors etc!
If you retain ME7 then is best to run with torque model enabled even on drag or other racing cars, if you disable torque model then you kill 70% of your ECU So on WOT you say that a narrowband ECU runs closed loop and make TP cuts? All the narrowband ECUs that I have tuned I have found in any that safety feature enabled, ONLY on wideband version I see this. Some exception there are on some narrowband ECUs that transform Lambda request to Narrowband O2 voltage requested, and this can be seen on block 32. But on 1.8T 400bb ECU, this feature is OFF! If you have any examples you can share with me In Greece we have some of the most powerful 4cyl engines around the world. I can say that there are a lot of FAMILY CARS with power around 400 - 600hp. There are a lot of examples on each month magazines! About torque model you are correct by killing 70%+ of the ECU, but you have also some benefits that a drag car will need, but it is not the right place to discuss that! |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
silentbob
Full Member
Karma: +30/-1
Offline
Posts: 141
|
|
« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2011, 09:44:10 PM »
|
|
|
Can you explain that a bit more detailed?
What does adaptation has to do with the power level of a car?
simple, if LTFT is adapted not close to zero then is mess on WOT fueling and reduce engine performance by lean or rich condition...........if the car have wideband lambda controll then it can compensate fueling, but that is safety function and sometimes even its not sufficient and engine can goes on limp mode from incorect fueling and reached limits of lambda controll range...... Either I don't understand you right or you have a very strange way of calibrating. You can calibrate what the adaptation does and what not, and it is indeed pretty useful to cover variations in fuel quality for example. Same with lambda control. I'm down with you that the precontroled values for all variables are key, but do you really think that you can cover all influences like ambient conditiones (height, temperature) without any control circuits? Do you have a dyno in a climate chamber which can vary pressure and temperature to calibrate that, let alone hardware differences if you use the software on different engines. With some stuff I read here I really wonder if the guys that obviously calibrate other peoples engines really test some fault conditions and the consequences or just throw in something and hope everything will work out right. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
kelesha
Full Member
Karma: +9/-2
Offline
Posts: 61
|
|
« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2011, 12:24:40 AM »
|
|
|
Either I don't understand you right or you have a very strange way of calibrating.
You can calibrate what the adaptation does and what not, and it is indeed pretty useful to cover variations in fuel quality for example. Same with lambda control. How you mess fuel quality and knock adaptation here ? I talk about LTFT i.e Long Term Fuel Trim, its havent anything to done with fuel quality........ I'm down with you that the precontroled values for all variables are key, but do you really think that you can cover all influences like ambient conditiones (height, temperature) without any control circuits? Do you have a dyno in a climate chamber which can vary pressure and temperature to calibrate that, let alone hardware differences if you use the software on different engines. Like i wrote you, you can have only STFT i.e Short Term Fuel Trim enabled (without LTFT adaptation) and its sufficient to cover all temp and altitude conditions.........read what i wrote in detail please With some stuff I read here I really wonder if the guys that obviously calibrate other peoples engines really test some fault conditions and the consequences or just throw in something and hope everything will work out right. Sometimes i wonder the same, but hope all they done that, even when Motronic is smart enough to cover 90% of "bad tune errors" to save the engine.... |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
