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« Reply #120 on: February 27, 2014, 10:32:55 PM »
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There are two independent questions: what is moral, and what is legal.
Copyright law restricts redistribution, not modification (or even reverse engineering/hacking).
Patent law restricts redistribution of products made from patented technology. There are no "reverse engineering" restructions to patented technology since (ostensibly) the technology and its methods are publicly (and fully) disclosed in the patent itself.
Morality/ethics are far more subjective and arguing over that will never get anybody anywhere.
Just to be clear on this one. i mean editing and working on it, not ever selling it or using in comercial ways. That i see would be cheap shut. |
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A6_C5_Allroad
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« Reply #121 on: April 01, 2014, 05:13:00 PM »
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Correct me if I am wrong, but don't all tuners "steal" ECU tunes by virtue of using what Bosch tuners originally wrote for any given application? I mean, no tuner fully erases an ECU, and then starts from scratch and names his own parameters. Some, if not most of the work belongs to the original designer/author/tuner.
So, GIAC can claim that someone is stealing their work, but aren't they, themselves, guilty of stealing, say Bosches work on the ME7, ME7.1, etc, etc,...>
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« Reply #122 on: April 05, 2014, 11:22:39 AM »
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Correct me if I am wrong, but don't all tuners "steal" ECU tunes by virtue of using what Bosch tuners originally wrote for any given application? I mean, no tuner fully erases an ECU, and then starts from scratch and names his own parameters. Some, if not most of the work belongs to the original designer/author/tuner.
So, GIAC can claim that someone is stealing their work, but aren't they, themselves, guilty of stealing, say Bosches work on the ME7, ME7.1, etc, etc,...>
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Snow Trooper
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« Reply #123 on: April 05, 2014, 12:00:48 PM »
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Yes, everyone is working off Bosch code. People crying about people stealing their tune need to just stop. When I tune someones car and they pay me for it, that file is now theirs, they can do whatever with it. If they want to take that file that is tuned extremely tight to their car and spread it to others, I dont care because it wont be perfect on the others and they will end up paying me for one anyway.
That is why I dont lock my files, encrypt them, location swap them, or ever bother to disabling reading over obd which is enough to stop 95% of people.
I look down on tuners that think they are special and need to protect their precious IP, it actually makes me view them as less capable, like they are so worried the one piece of okay work they did wont continue to print them money or something. If you are a good tuner, people will seek you out and want to pay you for your skills. Relying on secrets to stay relevant is not an indication of knowledge or skill.
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cartoons?
6A 61 72 65 64 40 76 6C 6D 73 70 65 63
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hammersword
Full Member
Karma: +31/-2
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Posts: 136
Revlimit ECU tuning
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« Reply #124 on: May 23, 2014, 08:54:23 AM »
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Revo is not a mess... Revo software is excellent calibrated and these guys are some of the few in this planet who have totally understand Motronic torque model and load model!
Revo sells massively so the tune is almost standard and safe!
Reading and editing the file from other company is illegal
Posting the file from other company here in public is illegal
Saying " I got the XXX file and I am modifying it" is illegal
If you want, just do it beside the publicity and not inform the planet that you are playing with other's stuff from the time that Revo has signature and copyrights in the file...
Making your ECU back to stock is very easy and you can do it in 5mins
1) Flash the orignal file to your ECU
2) remove from eeprom the REVO signature, correct cks and flash it back to ECU. Otherwise you can flash the original FLASH to your ECU with NEFMOTO software and nefmoto will clear the REVO signature from eeprom but then you will have NEFMOTO signature inside
cheers,
Fotis
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nyet
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« Reply #125 on: May 23, 2014, 11:50:21 AM »
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Reading and editing the file from other company is illegal No, it isn't. Posting the file from other company here in public is illegal
Unclear, but it is against forum policy. Saying " I got the XXX file and I am modifying it" is illegal
Obviously untrue. That said, modifying a tuned file that isn't your own is a bad idea for many, many, many reasons. |
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« Last Edit: May 23, 2014, 11:52:18 AM by nyet »
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cerips
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« Reply #126 on: May 23, 2014, 01:46:09 PM »
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Reading and editing the file from other company is illegal Someone better tell Revo et al as Bosch/Audi/VW did it first  |
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nyet
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« Reply #127 on: May 23, 2014, 02:15:16 PM »
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Someone better tell Revo et al as Bosch/Audi/VW did it first Exactly. |
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phila_dot
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« Reply #128 on: May 23, 2014, 02:44:52 PM »
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Didn't REVO steal everything that they have now from APR!?
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userpike
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« Reply #129 on: May 23, 2014, 02:50:10 PM »
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this thread isn't dead yet?  |
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ddillenger
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« Reply #130 on: May 23, 2014, 03:02:58 PM »
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this thread isn't dead yet? I merged the irrelevant posts in the recent revo thread. I don't see the need for every post to turn into a debate on ethics. Didn't REVO steal everything that they have now from APR!?
So say the court documents at least. |
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« Last Edit: May 23, 2014, 03:09:30 PM by ddillenger »
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Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your experience!
Email/Google chat:
DDillenger84(at)gmail(dot)com
Email>PM
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phila_dot
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« Reply #131 on: May 23, 2014, 03:05:26 PM »
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Copy someone else's work is wrong, bottom line.
Cloning it for resale is wrong.
Cloning it and calling it yours is wrong.
Tweaking it and calling it yours is wrong.
Freely spreading someone elses' work without permission is wrong.
Legal or not, this is basic stuff that even a child could identify as wrong.
The whole we stole it from Bosch argument is a cope out used to justify doing shit that you know is wrong.
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userpike
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« Reply #132 on: May 23, 2014, 03:12:18 PM »
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Didn't REVO steal everything that they have now from APR!?
Neuspeed seems to have started it all as far as VW ECU tuning. "Every NEUSPEED P-CHIP is still developed in-house by Aaron Neumann, one of our company founders and a 36-year veteran of the Audi/Volkswagen tuning industry. In 1975 (when many of our competitors were still in diapers) Aaron was already dyno-tuning small block V-8 motors and 4-cylinder overhead cam race motors. In 1990, Aaron and NEUSPEED were the first to offer a replacement EPROM for Volkswagens. Our Corrado G60 and Golf/Jetta II 2.0 16V chips were the first VW chips ever available." SO, did REVO steal from APR who stole from Neuspeed who stole from Bosch? |
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phila_dot
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« Reply #133 on: May 23, 2014, 03:31:52 PM »
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Early REVO files even had APR signatures in them IIRC.
I don't remember the details, but I think REVO was founded by APR employees that saw an opportunity to start their own thing.
IMO when someone buys a tune, they buy the service of the tuner and resulting calibration.
My analogies suck, but say you hire a portrait painter and he paints a picture exactly to your liking. The purchaser then is free to sell the one original painting or paint over it and mess it all up. The purchaser can even sell the one messed up original. However, the purchased cannot reproduce the painting and give away or sell the reproductions. Even if the purchaser made minor changes to it.
I'm not interested in all of the legal bs that everyone will come back with. It's called principles.
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Snow Trooper
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« Reply #134 on: May 23, 2014, 03:53:40 PM »
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Biz legalities and biz ethics do not follow the same course.
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cartoons?
6A 61 72 65 64 40 76 6C 6D 73 70 65 63
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