NOTORIOUS VR
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« on: June 06, 2014, 10:31:45 AM »
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So, in the never ending learning curve of ME7.x, these maps are obviously very important for the car to drive/react happily at both part and full throttle in terms of boost control, etc. Although I'm not sure yet but it might also have a role in load calculations as well? I ask only because while I was able to get my car running smoothly by modifying the maps (specifically only the pressure axis) but the car for running the same and more constant boost levels feels slower (could be for the reasons below though)? That said, I'm curious to know what variables we should be logging to properly dial in these maps (even if it's just to adjust the axis, which for the most part seems to work quite well) when bigger hardware changes are made. Personal example: I've always piss poor boost response and stability in my GLI. The PO had upgraded the turbo to a K04 unit (unsure at this point if it's a real BW or china replica). Everything else other then the intake silicon and DV is stock on the car and now I've added a 4 BAR FPR. The car has a lot of miles on it (over 300k km). I do think there might be some blockage with the stock catalytic as well at this point since I've had issues with the coils in the past as have a cat efficiency for the past little while code so keep that in mind. I was able to solve almost completely the boost issues by reducing the pressure axis by 15%, here you can see before and after logs... Before: After: No matter what I tried to do with the boost control maps, I was never able to solve the oscillation issues under part/full throttle until now so I'd like to see how people generally go about tuning these maps for their setups/situations.
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tjwasiak
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« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2014, 10:36:52 AM »
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One small note - I might be wrong but what you are referring as feeling the car being slower albeit running same level of boost might be only because it drives smoother so also the boost is built smoother.
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nyet
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« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2014, 10:42:22 AM »
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That first graph looks like it is full throttle: you should have NO problem tuning the PID for that condition.
Changing the pressure axis just changed the way the PID responds, IMO.
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ME7.1 tuning guideECUx PlotME7Sum checksumTrim heatmap toolPlease do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own. Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your ex
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ddillenger
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« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2014, 10:51:10 AM »
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That first graph looks like it is full throttle: you should have NO problem tuning the PID for that condition.
Changing the pressure axis just changed the way the PID responds, IMO.
I agree. I don't think this was the right approach here.
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Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your experience!
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NOTORIOUS VR
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« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2014, 11:12:08 AM »
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That first graph looks like it is full throttle: you should have NO problem tuning the PID for that condition.
Changing the pressure axis just changed the way the PID responds, IMO.
I've tried everything I can think of with PID changes and it never, ever turned out as nice as with the simple change to the axis that I made... Also are you sure that pressure axis is even shared with the PID? I don't think it is?
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nyet
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« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2014, 11:20:16 AM »
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Nothing else in the two before/after logs have changed, only wgdc response.
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ME7.1 tuning guideECUx PlotME7Sum checksumTrim heatmap toolPlease do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own. Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your ex
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NOTORIOUS VR
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« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2014, 11:30:04 AM »
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exactly... so if everything remains the same but my only change was the pressure axis for the throttle maps, I'm having a hard time to understand how this is PID related that's all I'm saying. Of course this is why I started this thread
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julex
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« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2014, 11:57:26 AM »
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My take on it is that the PID controller is all screwed up. First run starts from 3k and ramps up boost very quickly overshooting the target and causing wild oscillation which PID controller cannot attenuate due to wrong parameters. Second run starts from 2k and there is physically no possibility of overshooting there so the ramp up is gentle enough for PID to still work smoothly and not cause oscillations. Post logs of P, I and D and we will immediately tell you what's wrong
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NOTORIOUS VR
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« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2014, 12:18:52 PM »
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My take on it is that the PID controller is all screwed up. First run starts from 3k and ramps up boost very quickly overshooting the target and causing wild oscillation which PID controller cannot attenuate due to wrong parameters. Second run starts from 2k and there is physically no possibility of overshooting there so the ramp up is gentle enough for PID to still work smoothly and not cause oscillations. Post logs of P, I and D and we will immediately tell you what's wrong It doesn't matter where I start if I put the pressure axis back to stock for the throttle tables the boost will oscillate all over the place until redline. So how can it be that the PID is screwed up when the PID settings are identical between the two files? Here is a log that starts right around the same time as the other run (around 2k):
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ddillenger
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« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2014, 12:22:21 PM »
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He's saying the overshoot isn't as severe, so the reaction isn't so dramatic. Telling the ecu the gates are a different preload is not the solution here IMHO. You're just allowing it to compensate for an improper PID with target throttle plate angle.
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Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your experience!
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NOTORIOUS VR
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« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2014, 12:37:51 PM »
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He's saying the overshoot isn't as severe, so the reaction isn't so dramatic. Telling the ecu the gates are a different preload is not the solution here IMHO. You're just allowing it to compensate for an improper PID with target throttle plate angle.
Still doesn't make sense to me. Throttle plate angle isn't any different in either file.. Both follow my pedal accordingly and TB never closes. So how can it be that PID is reacting correctly with just that change but I see no difference with the actual TB movement. We're obviously looking at WOT only here in all of these runs.
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littco
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« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2014, 12:41:23 PM »
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He's saying the overshoot isn't as severe, so the reaction isn't so dramatic. Telling the ecu the gates are a different preload is not the solution here IMHO. You're just allowing it to compensate for an improper PID with target throttle plate angle.
When I played with these maps I found the throttle plate position just changed.. Instead of 100 % I got 85% .. Worked as a hack but maf readings and driving was very wrong...
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ddillenger
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« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2014, 12:53:40 PM »
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When I played with these maps I found the throttle plate position just changed.. Instead of 100 % I got 85% .. Worked as a hack but maf readings and driving was very wrong...
This is exactly what the axis does. Basically if requested boost is below wastegate pressure, rather than allowing the PID to try to control it, it uses the throttle plate angle. As for it being off, you still had to modify WDKMSN and MSNWDK properly.
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Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your experience!
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littco
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« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2014, 01:08:48 PM »
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This is exactly what the axis does. Basically if requested boost is below wastegate pressure, rather than allowing the PID to try to control it, it uses the throttle plate angle.
As for it being off, you still had to modify WDKMSN and MSNWDK properly.
Pretty sure I did modify them.. I need to spend more time on this as current methods of controlling boost by direct n75 control is leading to issues where actuators settle down over time and where say 65% dc gives 1.4bar one week, a few hot cycles and softening of a new spring leads to 1.1bar and the need for tweaking.. Starting to like the old load based tuning much more for this exact point...
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nyet
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« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2014, 01:09:56 PM »
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BTW the two graphs in the first post have drastically different boost ramps.
the PID should be tuned so it can handle both ...
You need a LOT more D in the RPM area where the boost nears reqest in the first graph..
in the second graph, the D is sufficient at that RPM.
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ME7.1 tuning guideECUx PlotME7Sum checksumTrim heatmap toolPlease do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own. Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your ex
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