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Author Topic: Nefmoto community project: Stage1 2.7t ME7.1 S4 (APB 8D0907551M-0002)  (Read 473214 times)
FlyboyS4
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« Reply #420 on: July 07, 2015, 05:10:02 PM »

Next exercise would be to check how far is modelled EGT from real values...

EGT values are real, I'm using the RS6 EGT sensors.
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nyet
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« Reply #421 on: July 07, 2015, 05:17:16 PM »

EGT values are real, I'm using the RS6 EGT sensors.

Yea, i thought so.. Really great to see the logs reflect that modeled EGT is pretty damn accurate!

I know nobody wants to see 11 or lower AFR, but with EGTs climbing towards 800, it may be prudent, especially on pump gas on very low timing.

In any case, i wonder if we're seeing REAL EGT corrections from the RS6 sensors (not BTS but ATR). I've never logged a car equipped in this fashion, but it would explain why enrich seems to be happening sooner than expected.

If so, we are now out in the weeds and off the stage 1 reservation, unless we agree numbing ATR is relatively harmless for those running stock NB EGTs... and, incidentally, numbing ATR is one way of coding out NB EGTs which are notoriously unreliable and prone to failure.

Comments?
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therealnap0le0n
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« Reply #422 on: July 07, 2015, 05:33:55 PM »

What could cause (high injector ms/ low DC) at lower rpms? My injector logs look so different then Flyboy
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FlyboyS4
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« Reply #423 on: July 07, 2015, 06:14:53 PM »

Yea, i thought so.. Really great to see the logs reflect that modeled EGT is pretty damn accurate!

I know nobody wants to see 11 or lower AFR, but with EGTs climbing towards 800, it may be prudent, especially on pump gas on very low timing.

In any case, i wonder if we're seeing REAL EGT corrections from the RS6 sensors (not BTS but ATR). I've never logged a car equipped in this fashion, but it would explain why enrich seems to be happening sooner than expected.

If so, we are now out in the weeds and off the stage 1 reservation, unless we agree numbing ATR is relatively harmless for those running stock NB EGTs... and, incidentally, numbing ATR is one way of coding out NB EGTs which are notoriously unreliable and prone to failure.

Comments?

After 5750 rpm the desired AFR starts climbing, which looks to be what would be expected based upon the KFLBTS table.  Would setting the target AFR to 11.5 between 4500-5500 keep it from going as rich as it is?
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FlyboyS4
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« Reply #424 on: July 07, 2015, 06:15:38 PM »

What could cause (high injector ms/ low DC) at lower rpms? My injector logs look so different then Flyboy

Have you made more changes to your bin since you sent me one?
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therealnap0le0n
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« Reply #425 on: July 07, 2015, 06:22:30 PM »

Just a bump in ldrxn mirroring yours and drop in DIMX due to the massive overshoot I was getting. Although my timing logs aren't as clean looking as yours either, my car is displaying more knock retard than yours and cam angle isn't showing a flat line with a pronounced change over either.  It's amazing how differently our cars have reacted to the same changes

I give you guys a lot of credit, refining these tunes is not easy, and I fear when my turbos decide to eat it and I go frankenturbo I'll be paying one of you guys for your time vs trying to build a stage 3 tune myself. My confidence is just not that high
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tjwasiak
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« Reply #426 on: July 07, 2015, 06:54:42 PM »

Yea, i thought so.. Really great to see the logs reflect that modeled EGT is pretty damn accurate!

I know nobody wants to see 11 or lower AFR, but with EGTs climbing towards 800, it may be prudent, especially on pump gas on very low timing.
So if modelled EGTs are close to real than IMHO BTS should be retuned as 800*C is just to early for such big intervention. The other thing which should be done is to try to readjust (I mean advance) timing and check what will happen.

In any case, i wonder if we're seeing REAL EGT corrections from the RS6 sensors (not BTS but ATR). I've never logged a car equipped in this fashion, but it would explain why enrich seems to be happening sooner than expected.
I do not think so as ECU do not know it is using wideband EGT sensors IMHO (or I just missed the fact ATR was adjusted). Still 800*C is too early to drop AFRs below 11:1 IMHO.

If so, we are now out in the weeds and off the stage 1 reservation, unless we agree numbing ATR is relatively harmless for those running stock NB EGTs... and, incidentally, numbing ATR is one way of coding out NB EGTs which are notoriously unreliable and prone to failure.
If narrowband EGTs are so bad maybe it would be better for those who still have them to deactivate ATR but make BTS over reactive for really high temperatures (like setting to FBSTABGM to > 1). Still I would try to log all fueling request to find what is going on before taking decision what should be done. If in fact it is due to KFLBTS I would try setting it to more "sane" values and use FBSTABGM to alter enrichment according to EGT if you really need TABGBTS set to relatively low (and safe) value.
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nyet
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« Reply #427 on: July 07, 2015, 07:58:56 PM »

So if modelled EGTs are close to real than IMHO BTS should be retuned as 800*C is just to early for such big intervention.

I think I agree

Quote
The other thing which should be done is to try to readjust (I mean advance) timing and check what will happen.

Not going to happen on pump gas if we are already at 11 and correcting.

Quote
I do not think so as ECU do not know it is using wideband EGT sensors IMHO (or I just missed the fact ATR was adjusted). Still 800*C is too early to drop AFRs below 11:1 IMHO.
If narrowband EGTs are so bad maybe it would be better for those who still have them to deactivate ATR but make BTS over reactive for really high temperatures (like setting to FBSTABGM to > 1). Still I would try to log all fueling request to find what is going on before taking decision what should be done. If in fact it is due to KFLBTS I would try setting it to more "sane" values and use FBSTABGM to alter enrichment according to EGT if you really need TABGBTS set to relatively low (and safe) value.

Sounds reasonable to me.
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« Reply #428 on: July 07, 2015, 08:12:47 PM »

1.  Some more minor adjustment to LDRXN, raised a little at the start to try and get requested to match actual.
2.  Bumped up timing a fair amount (KFZW and KFZW2)
3.  Increased TABGBTS to 800C.
4.  Ambients temps were a good bit cooler this evening 66F, versus the 76-82F it's been recently.

Here's AFR:



Here's the Nef-13 data log.
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nyet
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« Reply #429 on: July 07, 2015, 10:34:41 PM »

Welp. It's definitely enriching at 800C Smiley

You can numb BTS further ... or.... not sure where to go.

Me, I have BTS set to not go below 11.5.. but I hesitate to unilaterally recommend that.
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ME7.1 tuning guide (READ FIRST)
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ME7Sum checksum checker/corrrector for ME7.x

Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your experience.
tjwasiak
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« Reply #430 on: July 08, 2015, 03:35:58 AM »

So it seems FlyboyS4's changes dropped EGT a bit (due to advanced timing I suppose).
Flyboy, how is your FBSTABGM set now?
Perhaps the proper solution is to leave KFLBTS as it is but scale it by FBSTABGM (set to < 1 for 800-850 or even wider range of temperatures)?

EDIT:
Me, I have BTS set to not go below 11.5.. but I hesitate to unilaterally recommend that.
It all depends on how you set your fuelling. If BTS is used purely as last resort component protection it could be left even at lambda 0.7 (0.75 might be better if ATR is still used, because otherwise ATR will be unable to do anything). In this situation if you use KR based fuelling it might be wise to set it to lambda ~0.8 for such high load and high engine speed areas (I would not set to anything higher than 0.85 for lower engine speeds and no ignition advance correction).
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 03:41:43 AM by tjwasiak » Logged
FlyboyS4
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« Reply #431 on: July 08, 2015, 05:12:57 AM »

So it seems FlyboyS4's changes dropped EGT a bit (due to advanced timing I suppose).
Flyboy, how is your FBSTABGM set now?
Perhaps the proper solution is to leave KFLBTS as it is but scale it by FBSTABGM (set to < 1 for 800-850 or even wider range of temperatures)?

FBSTABGM ought to still be stock, at this point I don't know what it is, so we've not modified it.

I'm puzzled why BTS is intervening with the AFR to such a great extent now, but when it was set at the stock 499C level, like back with the Nef 4 revision, it wasn't.  The EGT's were above 500C from the start of the pull.  Is it the lower engine load?  If that were the case it seems as though the exhaust gas temperature is not the primary concern for driving this behavior.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 05:25:49 AM by FlyboyS4 » Logged
tjwasiak
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« Reply #432 on: July 08, 2015, 05:26:43 AM »

FBSTABGM ought to still be stock, at this point I don't know what it is, so we've not modified it.
I understand it might be questionable to tell people to change FBSTABGM in Stage1 tune but as we already changed TABGBTS IMHO we should tune BTS to our needs fully.
So what is FBSTABGM? FBSTABGM is a map (4x1) which is used to scale KFLBTS enrichment according to modelled EGT temperature.
So you will find ECU requests lambda values set in KFLBTS only if for given modelled EGT FBSTABGM is set to 1. If its value is lower or value read from the map is lower due to interpolation requested lambda will be higher. If FBSTABGM values are > 1 requested lambda is lower.
For example:
Code:
FBSTABGM:
800*C 850*C 900*C 950*C
 0.0   0.5   1.0   1.25
Code:
TABGBTS: 750*C
ECU would not use KFLBTS enrichment up to 800*C despite having TABGBTS set lower. Between 800 and 850*C there will be slight enrichment depending on exact modelled EGT. At 850*C it would use exactly half of value in KFLBTS, so if for given load/engine speed KFLBTS has value of 0.8 (lambda) it will request 1-((1-0.80)*0.5) = 0.9. Between 850 and 900*C enrichment will be scaled between 0.5 and 1 (for 900*C it will use exact KFLBTS values) and above 900*C enrichment will be bigger than KFLBTS values (from 950*C it will be 1.25*KFLBTS value, so for KFLBTS value of 0.8 it would request 1-((1-0.80)*1.25) = 0.7).

That is why I opted to use leaner values in KFLBTS and enrich further basing on modelled EGT temperature as you found it is not far from real EGT. FBSTABGM is IMHO good to use this approach.

EDIT:
I'm puzzled why BTS is intervening with the AFR to such a great extent now, but when it was set at the stock 499C level, like back with the Nef 4 revision, it wasn't.  The EGT's were above 500C from the start of the pull.  Is it the lower engine load?  If that were the case it seems as though the exhaust gas temperature is not the primary concern for driving this behavior.
I am still asking if we are sure it is in fact BTS enrichment. If I were you I would double check ATR and KR enrichments.
Have you logged all lambda requested values? Could you plot them?
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 05:29:48 AM by tjwasiak » Logged
nyet
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« Reply #433 on: July 08, 2015, 09:58:46 AM »

Have you logged all lambda requested values? Could you plot them?

This.

They're all documented in the FR, the tuning wiki, and in my .ecu file which I have posted several times in this thread. Don't make me dig for all three yet again.

Also, obviously we need dlamatr and dlamatr2 to see if BTS is truly from BTS or ATR
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 11:21:51 AM by nyet » Logged

ME7.1 tuning guide (READ FIRST)
ECUx Plot
ME7Sum checksum checker/corrrector for ME7.x

Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your experience.
FlyboyS4
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« Reply #434 on: July 08, 2015, 02:37:18 PM »

EDIT:I am still asking if we are sure it is in fact BTS enrichment. If I were you I would double check ATR and KR enrichments.
Have you logged all lambda requested values? Could you plot them?

What I have logged is contained in the data file linked above, I can add more variables if there are specific ones needed in addition to what I am already logging.
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