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Author Topic: Ignition retard due to richer mixture  (Read 16673 times)
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« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2014, 09:10:32 PM »

Can you trust the original timing correction detection now that the pistons have been changed?


If I remember well, those tables shouldn't be touched as safety.
Can you explain what do you mean?
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vwaudiguy
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« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2014, 09:13:40 PM »

Fairly sure some big name tuners change those in their big turbo files. I mean the original algorithms or methods used to detect knock in a stock piston/compression engine might not work right on something with forged internals. Just a thought. This is going back to relying solely on your correction factor data to dictate your ign timing.
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« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2014, 09:37:21 PM »

Fairly sure some big name tuners change those in their big turbo files. I mean the original algorithms or methods used to detect knock in a stock piston/compression engine might not work right on something with forged internals. Just a thought. This is going back to relying solely on your correction factor data to dictate your ign timing.

Ok, thanx. So, you think I am getting wrong detection? That it is actually too sensitive?
It is always on cyl4 btw.
I am thinking if it can be something in hardware?
My fueling is perfect according to wb02.
Idle -1% pt 0%. Follows 11.8-12 aft up top.
What is confusing me is that looking at my logs, when I was running lean ie PT +11% aft 12.5-13.2. With much higher timing - there was less ign retard.
It does not make sense?Huh
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« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2014, 12:48:17 AM »

Latest log

The same fueling, timing was down by 4,5-6 deg from 2500rpm - 7000rpm on 120-200load cells.
Resulted as you can se in even more ign retardation on 3cylinars  now.

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NOTORIOUS VR
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« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2014, 08:54:58 AM »

Tuning is giving the engine what it WANTS... not what a bunch of people tell you you think it should be.

Of course, it looks like you're running above the MAP limit, you should really get on a dyno to at least see if you're in the ballpark for ignition timing. 22.5+ psi isn't not little boost by any means.

I wouldn't trust stock knock control in this instance because well, it's very hard to make a car knock on Ethanol but it's easy to pass MBT and generate too much cylinder pressure.  Tuning with OEM knock control on E85 is IMO a bad idea.

If you have some other way to properly measure repeatable performance to see if you're going in the right direction then do so in the mean time.
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« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2014, 10:31:05 AM »

Tuning is giving the engine what it WANTS... not what a bunch of people tell you you think it should be.

Of course, it looks like you're running above the MAP limit, you should really get on a dyno to at least see if you're in the ballpark for ignition timing. 22.5+ psi isn't not little boost by any means.

I wouldn't trust stock knock control in this instance because well, it's very hard to make a car knock on Ethanol but it's easy to pass MBT and generate too much cylinder pressure.  Tuning with OEM knock control on E85 is IMO a bad idea.

If you have some other way to properly measure repeatable performance to see if you're going in the right direction then do so in the mean time.

I will not be tuning it by knock Control.
As i wrote earlier, my approach will be.
I have a streach of road that i Always use.
Two runs in oposite direction - same start and stop. To counterfeit hight levels etc....
Dial in fueling at 12 - 12.2
Boost - i am happy with
Lower overall timing until car looses Power.
Then start my runs and monitor TQ and fats upping timing .075deg at the time.
As i have seen Before gains are pretty big with every .75 in right direction. (seen onse gain of 30tq rise at singel rpm/load Point just by raising .075 deg)
Onse the gains are not as big - stop and dial it back a Little.
Do a lot logs under diff condtions.


I am on a 3 bar mapsensor.
I spoke with one of the best e85 high Power e85 tuners in the country today.
Explaind what was happening with the car.
And he said that what i am seeing is not a knock it is a unfinished combustion, very likely beeing too rich.
I am gonna dial up fueling to 12-12.2 afr and turn down timing allover for another 3 - 6 deg.
My turbos spool at 3500rm K04 hybrids (its an RS4 btw) What would be the best approach on spool up?
« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 10:39:54 AM by Mocke » Logged
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« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2014, 10:33:13 AM »

This probably has nothing to do with your issue but in my experience you'd want AFR around .71-.73 lambda. Which would equate to right around 11afr on gasoline scale. But as said before stock knock control is irrelevant on ethanol. All you can do is log power at the wheels and increase until you don't have any power gains.
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« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2014, 10:43:15 AM »

This probably has nothing to do with your issue but in my experience you'd want AFR around .71-.73 lambda. Which would equate to right around 11afr on gasoline scale. But as said before stock knock control is irrelevant on ethanol. All you can do is log power at the wheels and increase until you don't have any power gains.


Precisely, that will be my approach, but i Think 11 at gas scale (which i use) is a bit low.
Once i dial in Everything i will test a bit leaner/richer afr for more Power.
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NOTORIOUS VR
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« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2014, 05:04:33 AM »

This probably has nothing to do with your issue but in my experience you'd want AFR around .71-.73 lambda. Which would equate to right around 11afr on gasoline scale. But as said before stock knock control is irrelevant on ethanol. All you can do is log power at the wheels and increase until you don't have any power gains.

Thats wayyyyyy too rich.    Keep it around 11.8 and you'll be just fine and go from there.

That said Mocke, if the car likes timing, give it timing.  The motor is never wrong.
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« Reply #24 on: October 02, 2014, 08:12:19 AM »

11 is too rich for this setup. It is more for big boost applications.
I got it at 11.8 -12 now, but BC load based, when it is cold out, the ecu calls for more load and it richens afr too 11.5 at some points.
I will lean it up first, hope for a run today, if I get the time of family business
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« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2014, 09:59:34 AM »


Yeah!! Breakthrough!!
Looks much better.
AFR 12.2-12.7
Lowered allover timing from 80 load upwords by 3-6 deg.
Car feels better, has lost some Power but not much - as it should.
All of this tells me that my timing was way too high for this setup - thanx DAZ and Phila!!
Next step will be lowering timing just for 1.5 deg fix my FKKVS to keep afr constant and then start working upwords.



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« Reply #26 on: October 02, 2014, 10:06:51 AM »




This is the same log.
Can i get some feedback, plz  - i dont understand exactly what is going on here?
What should Voltages look like if evrything was perfect and what this values mean.
Thanx!!
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« Reply #27 on: October 02, 2014, 10:13:41 AM »

Logged knock voltages mean nothing; the ECU does a ton of processing on the realtime data for KR.

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« Reply #28 on: October 02, 2014, 01:43:01 PM »

Logged knock voltages mean nothing; the ECU does a ton of processing on the realtime data for KR.



Ok.
I was thinking as i had just a tiny ign retardation at 5k rpm on cyl4, and cyl 4'on knock log shows higher voltage values, that actually ment something??
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