Gulfstream
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« Reply #45 on: July 07, 2015, 02:20:05 PM »
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If it´s get better after 3 minuts you are experiencing only LTFT taking it´s place on tuning ME7  Don´t mess with KFZWMS, what do you think this map do ? KFZWOP you can leave it alone for start as I said before, because you CR is low to Ethanol it will not be a problem, latter, when you´re done with KFZW it MAY (or not) require some refinement in KFZWOP (again, as I said before start with same off-set KFZW-KFZWOP and go testing it)... lower TEMIN/TEMINVA will make only injector don´t pulse if it have more dead time than original ones (can´t tell you is it´s the case), but increase it sometimes help when using very big injectors wich can´t open in low pulse times (for example deka60 long EV1 don´t open lessa than 0,7ms...make TEMIN little major than that help you a lot when you are starting the tune, after you tune FKKVS, you can low down it to the real value) KFZWMS is ignition timing in function of exhaust gas temp? so i have to found SFTF and FKKVS ME7 have the KFFMLTA map? This map is important to warm up? The injectors that i use (FBY2850) is 55% bigger than my original injectors, when i used 50% bigger injectors in 1.8 20v engine i had the same problem in warm up. When i change the injectors per 550cc (bosch final 117), was more easy to correct warm up like a OEM engine, but i had the problem in start, because i dont found the TLST.0 / TLST.1 . The problem is in small injectors (50/55% bigger), i dont have a correct value for TEMIN and KRKTE. |
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Gulfstream
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« Reply #46 on: July 07, 2015, 04:01:45 PM »
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FKKVS found! 1CD56 16bit LoHi 0.000031 X 1CD26 8bit 40.00 - RPM Y 1CD36 16bit LoHi 0.002667 - ms I hate math!  Theoretically, the KRKTE can be calculated with the following formula KRKTE = 50.2624*(Liters/Cylinder)/(operating flow rate in cc/min * .684 constant ) Example: KRKTE = 50.2624 * 0.4452 / ( 615 * .684) = .0532 where i will put this result (.0532)? so... i dont understand this calcule and i dont understand it (50.2624 liters/cylinder)! ok, my car have 2.8 liters, and the injectors 350cc. (for example in 2d, how much i have to decreases) I am good in the practice and bad in theories! in all! this post ( http://s4wiki.com/wiki/Tuning) is help me to understand somethings too! |
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« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 04:07:06 PM by Gulfstream »
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ddillenger
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« Reply #47 on: July 07, 2015, 04:17:26 PM »
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KRKTE 16 bit factor 0.000111 0x1CF84
FKSTT 0x15594
TEMIN you don't need.
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Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your experience!
Email/Google chat:
DDillenger84(at)gmail(dot)com
Email>PM
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nyet
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« Reply #48 on: July 07, 2015, 04:23:54 PM »
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so... i dont understand this calcule and i dont understand it (50.2624 liters/cylinder)!
not "50 liters/cylinder", 50 * (liters/cylinder). where "liters" = 2.8 and "cylinder" is .... |
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ME7.1 tuning guideECUx PlotME7Sum checksumTrim heatmap toolPlease do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own. Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your ex
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Gulfstream
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« Reply #49 on: July 07, 2015, 11:27:24 PM »
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KRKTE 16 bit factor 0.000111 0x1CF84
FKSTT 0x15594
TEMIN you don't need.
ddillenger, thanks for you always help me! Great informations in this forum! |
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Gulfstream
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« Reply #50 on: July 07, 2015, 11:30:02 PM »
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not "50 liters/cylinder", 50 * (liters/cylinder).
where "liters" = 2.8 and "cylinder" is ....
I get a help with this calcule, see below with 350cc 50.2624 * 0.461833 / ( 350 * .684) = 23.2128349792 / 239.4 So, KRKTE should be 0.0969625521269841 = should be 0.0969 |
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overspeed
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« Reply #51 on: July 08, 2015, 05:30:12 AM »
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Here you are right as I have not taken mass/flow difference into consideration. Still there is more flow needed if you compare rich best torque mixtures - it is just not 94% I mentioned earlier but ~84%. Taking that into consideration I would say Gulfstream has choosen probably a little bit too small injectors for this conversion.
I still can not fully agree with you about KFZWOP as you simply insist torque model (which is one of the most important things in ME7) could be left in degenerated state. Adjusting KFZWOP by just shifting it by 5-8* could be much better solution than leaving it stock while still being an ugly hack.
If you look lambda (as Bosch use) it will be same... 0,93 lambda is the best torque lambda, for Ethanol or Gasoline... you just enrich more than this to control knock or EGT, with ethanol EGT is LOWER than Gasoline for the same power output, thats why you can go 0,85 lambda when gasoline would had problems. I didn´s say that, I said for first instance it can be leave alone as original values as it states that is the max ignition angle if not knock limited, i.e. max power with ideal fuel (what Ethanol represents at some point), BUT max power with ethanol is ure with more advance than gasoline (as they are really diferent fuels)... He shall start with 6° in KZFW and AFTER tweek KZFWOP if he have some problems (what he probably will not have)... that´s th way I do all my Ethanol convertions for more than 10 years... worked well for me. |
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overspeed
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« Reply #52 on: July 08, 2015, 05:34:56 AM »
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KFZWMS is ignition timing in function of exhaust gas temp?
so i have to found SFTF and FKKVS
ME7 have the KFFMLTA map? This map is important to warm up?
The injectors that i use (FBY2850) is 55% bigger than my original injectors, when i used 50% bigger injectors in 1.8 20v engine i had the same problem in warm up. When i change the injectors per 550cc (bosch final 117), was more easy to correct warm up like a OEM engine, but i had the problem in start, because i dont found the TLST.0 / TLST.1 .
The problem is in small injectors (50/55% bigger), i dont have a correct value for TEMIN and KRKTE.
STFT = Short Term Fuel trim (is not a map !!!!) it´s ME7 helping you to achieve spec lambda (lambda 1 if you didn´t mess wrongly in some way) concentrate you mind in FUEL first, after you can think aout how to get it better dealing with ignition... small tip, this formula is PETROL (as stated in FR), to ethanol you must take in account specific gravity and correct the formula... 55% bigger in static flow...it´can be (and probably will) MUCH diferent in dinamic flow (for example 1.000 pulses at 2,5ms as used for bosch) |
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tjwasiak
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« Reply #53 on: July 08, 2015, 05:48:02 AM »
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If you look lambda (as Bosch use) it will be same... 0,93 lambda is the best torque lambda, for Ethanol or Gasoline... you just enrich more than this to control knock or EGT, with ethanol EGT is LOWER than Gasoline for the same power output, thats why you can go 0,85 lambda when gasoline would had problems. I am not sure if you are right as I found different figures here. For petrol you should target between 0.9 and 0.85 roughly and enrich more only to prevent knocking and/or fight high EGTs (you can also try to advance timing to fight with EGT but sometimes it is impossible for example in boosted applications). According to above mentioned data for E100 you should target between 0.86 and 0.71 to get same results. I didn´s say that, I said for first instance it can be leave alone as original values as it states that is the max ignition angle if not knock limited, i.e. max power with ideal fuel (what Ethanol represents at some point), BUT max power with ethanol is ure with more advance than gasoline (as they are really diferent fuels)... I am afraid you do not fully understand torque model and ignition timing impact on it. KFZWOP is not maximum ignition advance under any circumstances - it is optimal ignition advance for given fuel (for which exact software was calibrated). I can assure you optimal advance is different much for E0, E10, E85 and E100 - as you told E100 needs more advance, so optimal advance is higher. If you even only during tuning "session" set KFZW to value close to or even higher than KFZWOP for given load/engine speed you can get many issues as whole torque model would just not work as it should - so every parameter (which depends on modelled torque, I would say as most depend on that it will be nearly all parameters!) would be incorrect. If we do not have proper tools to calibrate KFZWOP for different fuel (as it would take not only time but I am pretty sure at least 1 engine would not survive those tests) we should not leave it in stock form when KFZW is heavily altered. In naturally aspirated engine real timing could be closer to optimal (due to lower in-cylinder pressures) so it is even more important IMHO. |
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overspeed
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« Reply #54 on: July 08, 2015, 08:45:07 AM »
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I am not sure if you are right as I found different figures here. For petrol you should target between 0.9 and 0.85 roughly and enrich more only to prevent knocking and/or fight high EGTs (you can also try to advance timing to fight with EGT but sometimes it is impossible for example in boosted applications). According to above mentioned data for E100 you should target between 0.86 and 0.71 to get same results. You shouldn´t trust in all things you see on internet... the most recent studies shows that around 0,93/0,94 lambda is the best value for torque if you don´t have knock and/or EGT issues... 0,71lambda in Ethanol is shit... concentrate in 0,82~0,84 area and all be ok I make ethanol cars here everyday (Live in Brazil, we have it on pump since 70´s) I am afraid you do not fully understand torque model and ignition timing impact on it. KFZWOP is not maximum ignition advance under any circumstances - it is optimal ignition advance for given fuel (for which exact software was calibrated). I can assure you optimal advance is different much for E0, E10, E85 and E100 - as you told E100 needs more advance, so optimal advance is higher. If you even only during tuning "session" set KFZW to value close to or even higher than KFZWOP for given load/engine speed you can get many issues as whole torque model would just not work as it should - so every parameter (which depends on modelled torque, I would say as most depend on that it will be nearly all parameters!) would be incorrect. If we do not have proper tools to calibrate KFZWOP for different fuel (as it would take not only time but I am pretty sure at least 1 engine would not survive those tests) we should not leave it in stock form when KFZW is heavily altered. In naturally aspirated engine real timing could be closer to optimal (due to lower in-cylinder pressures) so it is even more important IMHO.
I sure understand torque model, you are not following what I said... START with 6° in KFZW and AFTER increase KFZOP only in areas needed, can you make the KFZWOP from scratch ? If you can´t it´s the only way...if you can we are discussing about angels sex  Sure you can make a "off-set" 6° in KFZWOP to start, but it will make your guests much more dificult as you can´see how far you are from the real optimal value. Another thing, nothing stop you from disable torque monitoring to make these first mods and make it work again when you have this part done |
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tjwasiak
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« Reply #55 on: July 08, 2015, 09:24:38 AM »
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Torque model is not only torque monitoring. This whole ECU is build on torque model. Every single function uses it to some extent.
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overspeed
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« Reply #56 on: July 08, 2015, 10:11:24 AM »
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Sure, but disabling it help when you didn´t finish KFZW/KFZWOP yet ...
If you have another different aproach to tune these ECU using E100 please tell me...
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Gulfstream
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« Reply #57 on: July 08, 2015, 01:32:21 PM »
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I decrease the FKSTT, the rich idle smell disappears but the idle still oscillating! this idle oscillating can be wrong KRKTE value? KRKTE is for WOT right? but affects the idle?  have two FKSTT in my file? if yes have to change all? I just change the 0x15594 (1st), dont make any mod in 0x155BA (2nd) |
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« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 01:39:02 PM by Gulfstream »
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tjwasiak
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« Reply #58 on: July 08, 2015, 01:43:39 PM »
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KRKTE and TVUB are both used all the time!
KRKTE is used to calculate for how long the injector should be open for given load to achieve lambda 1.
TVUB is a value added to calculated injection time to compensate for the time when injector is powered but is not spraying fuel.
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overspeed
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« Reply #59 on: July 09, 2015, 06:13:32 AM »
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KRKTE is the constant that convert % (load) in ms (injection time)
TVUB is time you increase for injector response for a specific battery voltage
used all time.
first adjust krkte, tuvb, fkkvs, KFLF, kfkhfm and after start tuning ignition.
fkstt ... enrich both
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