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ddillenger
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« on: July 16, 2015, 12:06:22 AM »
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Tuning this car recently (B5 S4, FT21's, single 044 pump, 60lb ev14s), and realized we were out of fuel. 3 revisions, all increasing fuel with no changes, I suggested removing the checkvalve from the 044, and running it direct to the battery with a relay. I wanted to see how much more we could gain, but the customer opted to replace it for a 450 (presumably because it was easier). This is not the first time I've seen this with the 044. It's actually the 3rd, and it's always at this power level on E85, so I don't see it as a coincidence. Something everyone fails to mention is that these 044's are ONLY rated for 500 hours of use with ethanol. I know a few people swear these things are good enough for 1,000,000hp, but I find that hard to believe. Anyone else have any experience here? How much headroom does the checkvalve and stock wiring cost us? The dotted line is the 044, solid is the Walbro 450. This is at 21psi boost, 4 bar base fuel pressure. Walbro running the factory wiring, no bypass valve modding either.  |
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« Last Edit: July 16, 2015, 12:08:00 AM by ddillenger »
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aef
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« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2015, 12:18:05 AM »
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No experience from my side but do you have a link or official paper showing the 500 hours with E85?
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adam-
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« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2015, 02:11:32 AM »
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I read that the same. Was going to fit a 044 because I think I have the same issue, but worried about the noise.
Either way, E85 makes it last 500 hours.
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ddillenger
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« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2015, 02:26:55 AM »
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I think that likely means that in critical applications it should be replaced every 500hr. Not that at 500hr it's going to fail,
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KmosK04
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« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2015, 03:00:06 AM »
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Try deatschwerks intank pump for 1.8t engines. They're ok till 550hp. OEM fitment
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adam-
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« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2015, 05:19:52 AM »
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Try deatschwerks intank pump for 1.8t engines. They're ok till 550hp. OEM fitment
Are they noisy? |
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NOTORIOUS VR
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« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2015, 05:27:02 AM »
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The check valve is probably what is costing the extra flow IMO, but I still have a hard time believing that the 044 can't support that power level. And the 450 E85 pump certainly outflows the 044 at the fuel pressures you're running at, so.
That said, it's no secret that the 044 isn't officially rated for long hours on E85, but most people don't have issues even well past 500 hours on these pumps.
Also I have to say, the amount of bootleg 044 pumps currently on the market (and the copy cats have gotten VERY good at making an almost EXACT copy) you have to be very aware of this as it would also explain the lack of flow.
FYI the approx fuel flow requirement is 285 L/hr for 21 psi w/ 4 bar base pressure @ 7000 RPM, which a single 044 should be able to support.
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SB_GLI
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« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2015, 05:33:54 AM »
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Are they noisy?
I have one in my jetta. Nope, not noisy. A little louder than stock, as to be expected, but my grandma would not notice a difference. You can hear it prime a little louder than stock, but once the car is running, you have to try to hear it. |
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SB_GLI
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« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2015, 05:38:49 AM »
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Try deatschwerks intank pump for 1.8t engines. They're ok till 550hp. OEM fitment
Are you suggesting that these would work in a 2.7t? I don't know enough to say for sure, but I doubt the pumps are the same size between the 1.8t and 2.7t. Anyone know for sure? |
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SteveKen
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« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2015, 05:58:06 AM »
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The check valve is probably what is costing the extra flow IMO, but I still have a hard time believing that the 044 can't support that power level. . .
Just my observations in dealing with the RS6, I think Audi was onto something in the way they designed the fueling system. In the non-RS6 applications I've seen, the in tank pump is doing double duty since whole suction jet pump system relies on the fuel pump and return circuit so it's probably not able to perform as advertised. The result of having a fuel tank shaped like a saddle, I suppose. By using a high volume low pressure pumping setup in the tank feeding an in-line pump (the RS6 design), this probably gets the in-line pump running closer to spec. Plus, the wiring running to the pumps in the RS6 is pretty beefy. They use the stock wiring plus they add an additional wire in parallel to supplement. Therefore, maybe the solution is to run a feeder pump in the tank |
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ddillenger
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« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2015, 06:05:09 AM »
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I bet it would be capable of more if it were hooked up properly (no check valve, relay'd direct to battery). Problem is, everyone hears "The 044 is good for 600hp!", so they buy the drop in kit that is full of compromises, and run out of fuel at 450hp.
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Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your experience!
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NOTORIOUS VR
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« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2015, 07:28:27 AM »
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I bet it would be capable of more if it were hooked up properly (no check valve, relay'd direct to battery). Problem is, everyone hears "The 044 is good for 600hp!", so they buy the drop in kit that is full of compromises, and run out of fuel at 450hp.
Let's make sure you're clarifying what is what... On gas, the 044 will not run out of fuel @ 450hp even with the check valve and stock wiring... |
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ddillenger
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« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2015, 07:32:45 AM »
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I am saying this:
As packaged as part of a "drop in" kit, there are some pretty significant restrictions that cap this pumps effective range. Too many compromises for that configuration to be considered a good choice. Just because so and so made 600hp with a single 044 doesn't mean that your setup is comparable, or that you can as well.
This is just my analysis. I have seen this on no fewer than 3 cars to date, all starting to run lean on E85 at this level, all the drop in kits. People act incredulous when I state "You need more fuel". I'm not stating that the pump is incapable, rather it's setup in a configuration that prevents it from being fully utilized. Either replace it with a pump that is more suited for the way you are powering it, or hook it up properly.
I think if someone is going to advocate using this pump, they should include ALL of the information; that it needs to be run without a check valve, and fed 14.4 volts, (not using the stock wiring).
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« Last Edit: July 16, 2015, 07:43:55 AM by ddillenger »
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Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your experience!
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DDillenger84(at)gmail(dot)com
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NOTORIOUS VR
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« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2015, 08:02:56 AM »
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I think if someone is going to advocate using this pump, they should include ALL of the information; that it needs to be run without a check valve, and fed 14.4 volts, (not using the stock wiring).
This is ALWAYS the case though, no matter what platform. People read on the internet they can go so fast and make so much power if they bolt on X parts because someone else did it. It's a fools world out there, with the amount of information and power you have now to read about what other people have done people getting into the game (or even ones that have been in it for a long time) take things for granted because they simply don't know what it takes to ACTUALLY do it. |
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