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Author Topic: Coding out intermittent egt faults  (Read 24505 times)
vwaudiguy
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« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2016, 06:28:40 PM »

Thanks for the explanations, fellas.

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prj
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« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2016, 11:34:44 PM »

I blame the wiki: it says something about removing the O2 requires fixes to the "EGT model" which is a misnomer. It should be the "O2 sensor temp model".
That's even worse.
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prj
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« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2016, 11:36:45 PM »

I think that misnomer started from tabgm being referred to as "temp at O2 sensor"

Whoever came up with that? Documentation clearly says it is temp at cat.
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nyet
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« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2016, 11:39:22 PM »

Whoever came up with that? Documentation clearly says it is temp at cat.

Are you volunteering to help correct the wiki? TIA.
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« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2016, 07:42:54 AM »

Whoever came up with that? Documentation clearly says it is temp at cat.

APR has it labeled as "EGTbank1OXS"  in ECU Explorer and MarkP titled the graph "EGT at Primary O2" in his commonly used excel template.
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Mechsoldier
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« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2016, 07:12:16 PM »

You're wrong. Not surprising if you use ecm titanium lol.

Here is how it actually works:
1. EGT sensors are used only in the ATR module, which is a closed loop controller. The target is a fixed "never exceed" value. The feedback comes from the EGT sensors. The control parameter is lambda. The more EGT, the lower the lambda is driven, to control the EGT. BTS runs off of simulated EGT's that has no connection to EGT sensors whatsoever.
2. When you disable diagnosis, what happens is, when the EGT sensor errors out, the value momentarily jumps to maximum 1000+C and ATR will fully enrich down to the flammability limit. It will not recognize it as a fault condition and just drive lambda into the ground.

Thus the car will intermittently puff black smoke at totally random times and bog due to the super rich lamdba.

I use Titanium because I bought it as a package with Kess V2. I don't only or always use it, and I'd love to buy winols.

This I did in hex.

But since I don't know how to find maps and make def files yet, its nice to be able to shoot an email off to italy and have a definition by 1 AM. I have lot to learn still. I don';t have nearly as many issues as a lot of people on here claim to have, mot sure if its because people are using the pirated version or what.

That being said, I did exactly what I've described, my friend is an Audi Master Tech, it's not doing anything you're saying. Fuel trims are fine, AFR is fine, no black smoke, zero faults.

I understand how the EGT work for the most part, and yes what Ive done it will make it wrong wrong if they wig out while driving, but these aren't doing that.


So yes, I understand that the vehicle runs off the lambda and EGT and then when the narrowband EGT exceeds the EGT limit then it richens the fuel map to get the EGT down. So I fully understand what I did, which is, I told the car I don't care what you think abouyt the sensors, and their resistance or their value its outputting just take it at face value.


I realize that Titanium has its share of bad reviews and isn't as advanced, but I've had no problems tuning a lot of cars with it. I certainly have FAR fewer problems than I ever had tuning with any of the companies I used to pay 400+ dollars to for their over conservative tunes. I really don't know why titanium gets the rap it gets from people. I use a combination of things, and Id love OLS, but I really like not having to do any checksum calculations, and I like their customer service, they handle the more technical things I don't understand and leave me with the maps to mess around with while I learn the more advanced stuff you guys can do with ols. For now, this makes does what I need it to, and anything else I use tunerpro or a hex editor.

« Last Edit: March 27, 2016, 07:31:09 PM by Mechsoldier » Logged
Mechsoldier
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« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2016, 07:17:47 PM »

You need to learn to differentiate between when the egt model is used, and when the egt sensors are used. Your statement was incorrect.

Yeah, I don't do EGT deletes, I would like to learn about it to know, but with my customers I tell them I won't do it.

This was a one time shot in the dark favor to a friend.

Where can I find more information on it so I can figure it out better? I was just basically going off what the wiki was saying, and I guess there's something about it described incorrectly?

I'll search again butr is there a good thread describing the EGT stuff, my understanding was these narrowband sensors just read a small range and triggered something with the lambda enrichment based on the EGT...When I disabled the last bit it fgell on its face when I'd get in it, then enabling that bit again allowed the car to run great, logged real time lambda, timing, boost, and saw zero issues, car has now been driving since the day I made this post with no faults anymore and they would come back same day before.

So, people on here are saying it shouldn't have worked but it seems to be working fine. And because people said that stuff I contacted my buddy and had him check everything out again with VCDS an the factory tool as well and no issues at all.
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nyet
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« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2016, 07:26:25 PM »

http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=199.0
http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=9161.0
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Mechsoldier
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« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2016, 07:33:55 PM »


Thank you sir for helping without the elitist bullshit some other people spew up on here. I understand how the EGT and Lambda stuff works I just don't know what to change to completely eliminate the EGT sensors if I wanted to. And I could tell as soon as I told it to ignore that the car was really unhappy when it reached the EGT threshold and that made it start to pull timing and boost because the AFR was off.

I'll have to sit down and read through this. I still plan to stick with my policy of not tuning them out I just don't trust my customers to not blow their engine up if something goes wrong I don't want to delete something like this and rely on the customer to not just throttle down if something goes wacky with the fuel pump or something and it starts running slow.
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prj
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« Reply #24 on: March 30, 2016, 03:05:00 AM »

That being said, I did exactly what I've described, my friend is an Audi Master Tech, it's not doing anything you're saying. Fuel trims are fine, AFR is fine, no black smoke, zero faults.
It will do it every single time that the EGT sensor shorts and shows 1000+ C EGT.
There is no diagnosis so the PID controller just goes nuts and enriches to the flammability limit.

As the intermittent contact/PCB goes worse and worse you will start noticing this while driving. It is possible now it only does on cold start which is not noticeable.

This is fact, it is not up for debate. Read the FR and stop writing walls of useless text.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2016, 03:07:02 AM by prj » Logged

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ddillenger
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« Reply #25 on: March 30, 2016, 03:13:26 AM »

I really don't know why titanium gets the rap it gets from people..............they handle the more technical things I don't understand and leave me with the maps to mess around with while I learn the more advanced stuff you guys can do with ols.



You only think it's good because you don't understand why it's bad (yet).

"doveryai no proveryai"

The issue here is that you're modifying these tables with the assumption that the person that defined them is correct. It's a dangerous assumption to make.

Also, prj is likely correct re: the failing egt. It just sounds like yours is sporadic enough to not meet the diagnosis criteria.
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prj
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« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2016, 09:05:27 AM »

Also, prj is likely correct re: the failing egt. It just sounds like yours is sporadic enough to not meet the diagnosis criteria.
It does meet the diagnosis criteria. What this man has done is disable diagnosis and keep control enabled, knowing that the sensors are going bad.
Already that is a pretty big fail. What makes it more epic is still recommending this fail approach after being called on it...
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ddillenger
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« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2016, 09:09:08 AM »

It does meet the diagnosis criteria. What this man has done is disable diagnosis and keep control enabled, knowing that the sensors are going bad.
Already that is a pretty big fail. What makes it more epic is still recommending this fail approach after being called on it...

I skimmed. I didn't catch that, and agree.
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nyet
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« Reply #28 on: March 30, 2016, 11:25:00 AM »

Can you confirm what CATR is set to?

http://s4wiki.com/wiki/Tuning#EGT
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Mechsoldier
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« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2016, 10:53:26 AM »

It does meet the diagnosis criteria. What this man has done is disable diagnosis and keep control enabled, knowing that the sensors are going bad.
Already that is a pretty big fail. What makes it more epic is still recommending this fail approach after being called on it...

Lol....once upon a time,  cars didn't monitor their sensors and tail light bulbs and shit for the tiniest little blip and throw the car into limp mode.

And whatever the ecm is seeing, is some tiny minute issue that's not effecting it at all.

Would I do this to a random customer car? Nope, but my buddy is an Audi tech and he knows what it's supposed to feel like when it's running right. It's been 6 months now, and it doesn't pull timing, detonate, run lean, or anything.

I mean,  I've seen temp sensors that do weird things like, read in their linear manner as designed, then when it goes from say 80 degrees Celsius, to 81, it jumps to 87, and then back down to 83...whatever is going on with his egt is something similar, for all I knowant the signal problem is at a temp below the enrichment threshold.

Honestly,  I'd much much rather do what I did, that straight out tune for an egt delete, yet people do thst all the time.

Its no different to me than owning a pre obd car, believe it or not people used to have to pay attention to how their car ran to figure out if a sensor was failing.

This won't work on every egt sensor, and there are some people who shouldn't be trusted with it,
But here's the deal he didn't even have me modify the requesting load, ignition timing or anything.

And also why are we pretending like there's no i knock control? This is a non issue.
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