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Author Topic: ai tuning?  (Read 706 times)
tadope
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« on: July 20, 2021, 11:15:34 AM »

I'm just wondering why this isn't a thing?   (fyi this is all nooby brainstorming)
even in the obd1 honda days there was "autotune" where you would log your wideband and then
the software would input what it thinks are ideal variables for fuel/spark etc.

most of our cars are obd2. and motronic.
it has SO many damn maps involved.  and a lot of capability to control things on it's own.

But it's really "cave man" going in and manually filling in tables to get a simple afr target, or spark target.

The "target" variables of a solid AFR, or ignition curve are SO simple.

I'm wondering why there isn't some sort of top level hardware/software that can just watch all your sensors then tune the engine automatically for you. 

Or does this exist already?
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Marty
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« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2021, 07:42:43 PM »

I'm just wondering why this isn't a thing?   (fyi this is all nooby brainstorming)
even in the obd1 honda days there was "autotune" where you would log your wideband and then
the software would input what it thinks are ideal variables for fuel/spark etc.

most of our cars are obd2. and motronic.
it has SO many damn maps involved.  and a lot of capability to control things on it's own.

But it's really "cave man" going in and manually filling in tables to get a simple afr target, or spark target.

The "target" variables of a solid AFR, or ignition curve are SO simple.

I'm wondering why there isn't some sort of top level hardware/software that can just watch all your sensors then tune the engine automatically for you. 

Or does this exist already?
Im not trying to be rude but its clearly you dont understand how me7 works. you put in the proper injector info and target lambda and it works (provided the info is correct) Obd1 honda are normally tuned in open loop (with a wideband you gauge and sensor you additionally need to buy) and the wideband o2 senors just logs %% error and you copy that info back into the primary fueling table. closed loop on honda is slow and is only used at part throttle, then goes open loop at full throttle. So if you have extreme temperature, elevation and/or humidity its going to screw up the fueling based off the conditions at which it was tuned. They have no fuelling adaptation, no knock correction nothing. Honda ecus have 2 main tables they run off of or 4 if vtec they are stupid idk if its s300, hts, neptune whatever. A proper tuned me7 car will run optimum dam near any place geographically vs honda that will need to be retuned depending on climate conditions and elevation. Long story short youre comparing a grapefruit to a basketball. Ive tuned both and I can honestly tell you with me7 NOOB shortcomings   (Winols, finding maps, german acronyms,  logger, incomplete defs, etc) its well worth it in the long run. Additionally, your car comes factory equipped with a 3 port boost controller and closed loop pid boost control. Also, for esse of tuning if  you wanted to you can always wideband swap the car. Youll need to run 2 wires to the big ecu plug, swap ecus to a wideband one. Choice is yours.
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tadope
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« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2021, 08:50:11 PM »

Im not trying to be rude but its clearly you dont understand how me7 works. you put in the proper injector info and target lambda and it works (provided the info is correct) Obd1 honda are normally tuned in open loop (with a wideband you gauge and sensor you additionally need to buy) and the wideband o2 senors just logs %% error and you copy that info back into the primary fueling table. closed loop on honda is slow and is only used at part throttle, then goes open loop at full throttle. So if you have extreme temperature, elevation and/or humidity its going to screw up the fueling based off the conditions at which it was tuned. They have no fuelling adaptation, no knock correction nothing. Honda ecus have 2 main tables they run off of or 4 if vtec they are stupid idk if its s300, hts, neptune whatever. A proper tuned me7 car will run optimum dam near any place geographically vs honda that will need to be retuned depending on climate conditions and elevation. Long story short youre comparing a grapefruit to a basketball. Ive tuned both and I can honestly tell you with me7 NOOB shortcomings   (Winols, finding maps, german acronyms,  logger, incomplete defs, etc) its well worth it in the long run. Additionally, your car comes factory equipped with a 3 port boost controller and closed loop pid boost control. Also, for esse of tuning if  you wanted to you can always wideband swap the car. Youll need to run 2 wires to the big ecu plug, swap ecus to a wideband one. Choice is yours.
Wow. I hadn't thought about the comparison being that drastic. But that is pretty bad on the Honda side of things.
I'm still learning me7. And as I've no wideband I'm basically just going on blind trust that the requested afr turns up as it should. 

But sounds like it works.   

Also my idea wasn't actually a Honda vs me7.  I was brainstorming a fictional tuning apparatus.   But I think the missing piece would be some sort of power sensor.

If me7 is as good as you say, then it is already "ai tuning".   But it's not tuning with a power target.   

Perhaps there is a power calculation that can be made from the me7 sensors?
A computer could use that to tune optimum power on the fly.

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nyet
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« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2021, 09:27:08 PM »

AI to tune PIDs though is definitely more common now. Not specific to ME7, but rather modern control systems, from autonomous vehicles, to drones, to manufacturing robots.... just about all control systems (which started as hand tuned PIDs) are being trained with gigantic datasets.
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ME7.1 tuning guide (READ FIRST)
ECUx Plot
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Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your experience.
tadope
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« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2021, 09:51:46 PM »

AI to tune PIDs though is definitely more common now. Not specific to ME7, but rather modern control systems, from autonomous vehicles, to drones, to manufacturing robots.... just about all control systems (which started as hand tuned PIDs) are being trained with gigantic datasets.
That makes sense. Pid is a pain in the ass. I had nothing but trouble with my current file and pid.  At the moment when I lower boost at low rpm. I get more boost.   No idea wtf that's about

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nyet
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« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2021, 11:18:42 PM »

ME7 PID is easy to fix if you use prj's feedforward approach.
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ME7.1 tuning guide (READ FIRST)
ECUx Plot
ME7Sum checksum checker/corrrector for ME7.x

Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your experience.
ZpiXDK
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« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2021, 02:25:40 AM »

Koenigsegg use AI with their Freevalve TFG engine

https://www.koenigsegg.com/gemera/tiny-friendly-giant-engine/

“That is why Koenigsegg has chosen to partner with SparkCognition, the world’s leading AI company, in order to leverage the development of the Freevalve equipped TFG”
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prj
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« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2021, 07:52:44 AM »

A lot of initial engine calibration already on MED17 was done fully automatically on the engine dyno with a computer driving the engines, recording data and filling tables...
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d3irb
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« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2021, 09:43:54 AM »

The hard part is data. You can't really automate doing pulls in your car, certainly not safely. So unless you have access to an engine dyno or a huge amount of data, the feedback loop for being able to iteratively goal-seek is going to take forever, and the data to train an ML model on is inadequate.

Iterative goal-seeking should work perfectly for many (most) models, but you need the ability to adjust them in a tight feedback loop.

With a ton of data from different vehicle configurations, you may be able to predict the base calibration for a new configuration, but this can also be done simply by knowing the physical properties of the hardware, so there's not much point. And indeed, when we look at factory calibrations, a lot of the complexity in the models already accomplishes this - enables the calibrators to start from physical properties rather than needing to collect data.
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