NefMoto

Hi guys - looking around what is the maximal value of KFPED map ?

in my current maps is set to 39322,0000 - however one point is set bit higher 39324,0000

Is there way of calculating the max - or just believe that full open throttle is on 39322,0000 ?

Kfped is throttle % torque map.

Axis are RPM and throttle % output is torque max 100%..

If you have 39324 then something is wrong

"Maximum" is not what you think it is.

Strange - as map looks ok - is ME7.3.1 - Alfa Romeo 2.0 TS with selespeed gearbox - thats what is DAMOS showing
(https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/jIfo5C30R.png)

That is not correctly defined.

Hint: what is 2^15?

Good hint  ;D

32768 but it mean that Alfa Romeo Engineers set map for pedal request way to high  ::)

So or is there correction (need to take a look on map props) or ..... have no clue  ;D

The axis/map values you are seeing are raw data, with no factor applied to make them meaning full. The actual defined maps should have these factors in them to make the scales and map values 'real' world for humans. IE make sense in terms or rpm/%/map

So question why full damos don't have the proper factors  >:(  - been checking other related maps to KFPED but no corresponding values range found...


Try to understand section MDFAW:

           x-axis       y-axis
KFPED WPED_W NMOT_W    KF accelerator pedal characteristic


How should I understand this:
The pedal characteristic is stored in the map KFPED. From accelerator pedal position and engine speed, a factor (relative torque request) in the range of 0 to 2 is generated (mrped w). 0 is corresponding to the request of the minimal indicated torque, while 1 is corresponding to the request of the maximal indicated torque. Values between 0 and 1 lead to a linear interpolation. The setting signal of the cruise control is also a relative torque request (mrfgr w) that becomes important if it is higher than mrped w. In this case, B fgr is set

so given two points, (0, 2) and (0, 2^15), what is offset/slope?

OK - spend 2 days of thinking  ;D and still no clue - maybe as i'm not English native so maybe I'm losing some context...

So is there any straight forward answer what is max value in this case ? Just keep in mind that the values I have show are original so I can believe that factory want to give full power on pedal to the metal  ;D - or maybe I'm wrong and some power(torque) is hidden behind ?

Other changes been done to the maps - like some ignition advance etc... so theory is more (torque) generated - question if this additional one is not blocked by pedal torque request ?

It took some time :) but I just get it  ;D

The magic number offset factor is ................ 0,0030517

So max requested in KFPED is 120% ..................... and now the question WHY is more than 100% ?

and other question - which other important maps use this factor ;) ?

Stop posting your spam and do some reading.
You have no idea what you are doing and adjusting that map is not going to give you any more power.

0xffff * 0.0030517 is not 120%

just cut the floor for more pedal
huge amount of powah will come
i guarantee

Or install 2 pedals! ;D

Every single 16bit value that needs to represent -100 to 100 (signed) or 0 to 200 (unsigned).

Oh thank you tunning masters - asking as I would like understand this map - and where I have said that this map is giving more power ?

and especially for mr.fukenbroken - did you done any mechanical tuning on the car other than sticking the flame stickers with getting extra 20hp ?

I have done at least 10 engines rebuilds with modifications, have build completely from frame at lest 20 cars (replicas of sports jaguars) - so do not talk to me in that manor.

I'm good in mechanical changes and now I'm looking to gain knowledge of "virtual" tuning. Doing it on my own with my own car starting from scratch. Did good changes in Magnetii Marelli ECU for my rallye Peugeot 106 without even a DAMOS file...

So now I politely asking for help in Motronic area - but looks like is another wankers forum. That's all.   

I tend to have similar sentiments, but perhaps not as strong. I treat attitude like that as an extra motivation simply.

120% values in KFPED are a bit puzzling, but simple to explain. I think this is a value "give me all you have and even more" as far as the throttle goes, limit this with other protection functions not to blow things up. Based on the torque from this map the requested load is calculated, then seriously cut by all kinds of limiters, so it does not make sense at first. But if you look at the LAMFA map, then it becomes clear. Only at 100+ requested torque the map gives extra fuel for power, at least in the ME bins I look at. (The fuel is going to be there nevertheless from LAMBTS, but as a matter of principle and separation of concerns it is done this way). So a short answer, 120% is there to get extra WOT fuel (even if redundant).

Otherwise, looking at all these maps and DAMOS and what not, take every thing you see with reservation. The amount of faults in them in large, and in the docs, and everywhere else. If you see something that is off, try thinking in terms of what it should be, not what it is.

I have yet to see more than 100% in any KFPED maps I've seen. But I also mostly deal with VAG, so...

Can you show a file that has been correctly defined that has these values?

Considering torque values are converted back and forth between signed and unsigned, I have a tough time believing 120% is meaningful.

What hex value are you seeing at what you think is "120%"?

                           0000   0000   0000   0000   0000   0000   0000
0000   0000   0000   0000   0000   23AF   1395   0D37   09E6   076E   06A5   0599   0523   04F5   04DB   04D8
04D7   4522   2EF5   1FAF   1948   13DE   108F   0F33   0DE3   0D14   0CD1   0CCA   0CC8   62C3   4EC4   3B22
3161   28C3   2391   2066   1E3D   1C4A   1BA8   1B4E   1B4E   7606   66FD   577F   4CE2   40CB   39CC   34A0
3144   2E8D   2E6E   2E40   2E33   82CD   794D   6FCD   6735   5A2F   514D   4B00   46CE   432E   42C3   42BC
42B3   869F   7F9F   799F   7371   69A8   611F   5B00   56B0   5280   51AE   5162   515B   89F1   84F1   8071
7CD3   7514   6E71   6880   6380   5F24   5E23   5E0A   5DE6   8CE6   8966   8666   82A2   7D66   7866   7366
6EEE   69C8   68F8   68EA   689E   8FB8   8D38   8AB8   87F2   8438   7FB8   7C66   7869   7402   72E4   7268
7266   930A   910A   8F0A   8CD8   898A   868A   8333   7FFE   7C05   7A7E   7A51   79FE   95B0   9400   92D8
9108   8F00   8C80   8961   86CE   82C7   819A   8145   8106   97AE   96AE   95AE   952E   932E   91AE   8F80
8D08   8A14   8862   87A6   87A5   98A4   9824   9824   97A4   9724   9624   94D8   92E2   8FF6   8E8B   8DD6
8DD6   999C   9971   9971   9971   9971   98F1   98F1   98F1   978A   978A   978A   978A   999A   999A   999A
999A   999A   999A   999A   999A   999A   999A   999A   999A

That's the whole KFPED map in 16bit - the graph is exactly as on the first pictures I have published here.

The question about the factor/offset on this map was not taken from the "air" - I just looked on this ORI map and could not understand why Alfa Romeo engineers set the numbers on this range - max is not 2^15 and is not 2^16
The max values do not correspond to other maps max values - so it have to be some formula around it to calculate.
The 120% is just a thought when you get that 2^15 is 100% and the values in the map are higher.

Maybe as Woj said is just way over to use other restrictions - but this make no much sense when half of map is never used. Flybywire has own life so this make it even more complicated.

I can live with even not touching this map as probably is not doing any restrictions for other changes I have made in the file - but just would like to know how it is calculated to this numbers.

So if you guys have properly defined KFPED maps in the DAMOS could you just please take a look in the properities of that map and tell me what the formula is set to calculate the % ?

See the attachments, interpreting the map with a sign and default conversion does not make much sense, at least not for me. Looking at the MED FR it suggests that the output of KFPED is very likely to end up untouched as input for LAMFA (= it can be truncated by mrspl, which is unlikely). So this would be one way of getting into the last column of LAMFA. But to be 100% one would have to check the code and see if the KFPED map is read with a procedure for unsigned values.

So which Alfa-Romeo setup you are talking about? My maps are from the different sorts of the Grande Punto Fiat t-jet version, it is likely that we talk about the same thing here, especially that we both have the 999A values. I don't believe there any offsets or different conversions, the only question is what the Italians were thinking of when they made the map going up to 120%. My theory is above.

My ECU is
ME7.3.1
261206708
277356576
3501819

This is Alfa 147 2.0 with selespeed gearbox.

As is no DAMOS for this 708-576 I have found damos for 204S - and been comparing parts of code to get the maps I been interested in. But this damos don't look as good as should as do not have proper scaling or even x,y - axis  not always looks right - so hard way of working with this.

Anyway - your theory make sense that this 120 in KFPED is matching last column of LAMFA (so value of KFPED becoming x-axis of LAMFA) and probably of few other maps.

So it will explain the "strange" value in the map and mean in short words that the 120 -> 999A is max value ... so just one small curiosity in this map - one value is just a bit higher 999C - but it can be engineering mistake or it do not matter.

No, the max value is whatever the data type in the table allows, here 0xFFFF in raw format, 199.996...% converted. What you are asking what values make sense / make difference, nothing above 120% will make any, but you can put such values into the map. I think. I also would not expect this to have influence on anything else than LAMFA, but that's of course something to check in the docs.

Guess what, none of that gets you any further with tuning. Just because you built an engine doesn't mean you understand anything about how it works. In fact a 10 year old can build an engine if he doesn't have ADHD. All it takes is doing things as per spec.

Nothing to do with how an ICE operates or how electronic control for it operates. Just by posting what you have posted shows you have absolutely no clue.
Hence what you posted is about as relevant as me saying, that I have eaten 20 big macs, and because of that "you should not talk to me in that manner".

You need to ask less stupid questions and read more. Perhaps you should learn something about computers and data types first, so you know what an int16 and an uint16 are. That literally answers your question right there.
Or if you are better at doing things with your hands, then do things with your hands and pay someone who is better at tuning for tuning your car. You probably can build an engine faster than I do, but that still doesn't help you tune it.

signed 16 bit 0x999a is -26214, or -80

The TT 3.2 VR6 have 110% max PED map.. some tunes ive seen for this lowers it to 100%

The >100% values are for the kickdown functionality on cars with auto boxes, so that it gets transmitted to the box. There are no physical kickdown switches for quite some time, just some resistance under the pedal.

Eureka !"

I know absolute zip about automatic boxes, but are you site we are talking about the same thing? You mean the requested torque or the pedal value?

I know this is an old thread but just some clarifications on KFPED and KFPEDR wrt interpretation of the fields...

1. Cell fields are %, conversion constant is 327.68, values are UWORD (Unsigned Word entries in 16-bit resolution)
2. X-Axis fields are % PED, conversion constant is 655.35, values are UWORD (Unsigned Word entries in 16-bit resolution)
3. Y-Axis fields are U/min (rpm), conversion constant is 4.0, values are UWORD (Unsigned Word entries in 16-bit resolution)

For KFPED in the Alfa Romeo rom dump I found (for a 1600cc)
X-Axis it was 16
Y-Axis it was 12

For KFPEDR (reversing)
X-Axis it was 16
Y-Axis it was is 8

And both use the same conversion constants. Checked against several other rom's I had lying around and there isn't too much variation on this, at least on 512kbyte roms.
Hope this is useful for anyon trying to make further understanding.

And just to help further, this is typical layout of ram (from a cells perspective, ignore the physical address here, its the walking through the memory that's the useful point of this)

  No.          |        0        1        2        3        4        5        6        7        8        9       10       11       12       13       14       15
            ADR| 0x81542A 0x81542C 0x81542E 0x815430 0x815432 0x815434 0x815436 0x815438 0x81543A 0x81543C 0x81543E 0x815440 0x815442 0x815444 0x815446 0x815448
  -------------+------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  0x81544A  ADR| 0x815462 0x81547A 0x815492 0x8154AA 0x8154C2 0x8154DA 0x8154F2 0x81550A 0x815522 0x81553A 0x815552 0x81556A 0x815582 0x81559A 0x8155B2 0x8155CA
  0x81544C  ADR| 0x815464 0x81547C 0x815494 0x8154AC 0x8154C4 0x8154DC 0x8154F4 0x81550C 0x815524 0x81553C 0x815554 0x81556C 0x815584 0x81559C 0x8155B4 0x8155CC
  0x81544E  ADR| 0x815466 0x81547E 0x815496 0x8154AE 0x8154C6 0x8154DE 0x8154F6 0x81550E 0x815526 0x81553E 0x815556 0x81556E 0x815586 0x81559E 0x8155B6 0x8155CE
  0x815450  ADR| 0x815468 0x815480 0x815498 0x8154B0 0x8154C8 0x8154E0 0x8154F8 0x815510 0x815528 0x815540 0x815558 0x815570 0x815588 0x8155A0 0x8155B8 0x8155D0
  0x815452  ADR| 0x81546A 0x815482 0x81549A 0x8154B2 0x8154CA 0x8154E2 0x8154FA 0x815512 0x81552A 0x815542 0x81555A 0x815572 0x81558A 0x8155A2 0x8155BA 0x8155D2
  0x815454  ADR| 0x81546C 0x815484 0x81549C 0x8154B4 0x8154CC 0x8154E4 0x8154FC 0x815514 0x81552C 0x815544 0x81555C 0x815574 0x81558C 0x8155A4 0x8155BC 0x8155D4
  0x815456  ADR| 0x81546E 0x815486 0x81549E 0x8154B6 0x8154CE 0x8154E6 0x8154FE 0x815516 0x81552E 0x815546 0x81555E 0x815576 0x81558E 0x8155A6 0x8155BE 0x8155D6
  0x815458  ADR| 0x815470 0x815488 0x8154A0 0x8154B8 0x8154D0 0x8154E8 0x815500 0x815518 0x815530 0x815548 0x815560 0x815578 0x815590 0x8155A8 0x8155C0 0x8155D8
  0x81545A  ADR| 0x815472 0x81548A 0x8154A2 0x8154BA 0x8154D2 0x8154EA 0x815502 0x81551A 0x815532 0x81554A 0x815562 0x81557A 0x815592 0x8155AA 0x8155C2 0x8155DA
  0x81545C  ADR| 0x815474 0x81548C 0x8154A4 0x8154BC 0x8154D4 0x8154EC 0x815504 0x81551C 0x815534 0x81554C 0x815564 0x81557C 0x815594 0x8155AC 0x8155C4 0x8155DC
  0x81545E  ADR| 0x815476 0x81548E 0x8154A6 0x8154BE 0x8154D6 0x8154EE 0x815506 0x81551E 0x815536 0x81554E 0x815566 0x81557E 0x815596 0x8155AE 0x8155C6 0x8155DE
  0x815460  ADR| 0x815478 0x815490 0x8154A8 0x8154C0 0x8154D8 0x8154F0 0x815508 0x815520 0x815538 0x815550 0x815568 0x815580 0x815598 0x8155B0 0x8155C8 0x8155E0

And here's one from a Ferrari 360... You read this left to right, not up/down.  % PED across top, revs on Y-Axis. It too has upto 122.3% defined (its an F1 AMT gearbox)


KFPED
    Long identifier:           Characteristics of Throttle Pedal Torque Requests.
    Display identifier:
    Value:

 No.           |        0        1        2        3        4        5        6        7        8        9       10       11       12       13       14       15
            PHY|     0.00     0.20     1.00     2.00     4.00     6.00    10.00    15.00    20.00    25.00    30.00    35.00    40.00    50.00    60.00    80.00
 --------------+------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  700       PHY|      0.0      5.0      7.0      9.7     14.1     16.8     21.9     30.1     40.6     58.8     74.8     87.0     95.8    106.7    114.1    122.3
  950       PHY|      0.0      5.0      7.0      9.4     13.7     16.4     21.4     29.8     40.0     57.8     73.4     85.3     94.0    105.8    113.4    122.3
  1200      PHY|      0.0      5.0      7.0      9.3     13.5     16.4     21.1     29.5     39.8     56.6     72.0     84.3     93.0    104.9    112.7    122.3
  1500      PHY|      0.0      5.0      7.0      9.3     12.7     15.3     20.9     29.3     39.2     55.8     70.9     82.3     91.6    103.6    111.8    122.3
  2000      PHY|      0.0      5.0      7.0      9.2     12.4     15.2     20.6     29.1     38.6     53.3     68.3     80.4     89.2    101.8    110.2    122.3
  2500      PHY|      0.0      5.0      7.0      9.2     12.4     15.0     20.4     28.9     38.4     52.7     66.0     77.7     87.0    100.4    109.5    122.3
  3000      PHY|      0.0      5.0      6.7      9.1     11.9     14.7     20.2     28.3     38.1     51.2     64.0     75.6     83.5     98.1    108.3    122.3
  4000      PHY|      0.0      5.0      6.2      8.4     10.6     12.6     18.3     26.5     36.5     49.2     60.8     72.0     80.4     94.5    105.9    122.3
  5000      PHY|      0.0      4.3      5.0      7.1      9.4     11.6     16.3     25.4     35.9     48.5     59.8     70.9     79.6     94.6    105.4    122.3
  6000      PHY|      0.0      3.9      4.5      5.9      8.5     10.3     14.3     23.8     36.0     49.7     63.3     73.7     82.7     96.2    106.1    122.3
  7000      PHY|      0.0      3.5      4.0      4.7      7.2      8.9     12.9     22.4     36.4     52.0     66.5     77.2     85.8     99.2    109.1    122.3
  8000      PHY|      0.0      2.7      3.6      4.3      5.9      7.6     11.8     21.9     37.6     55.8     69.8     80.8     89.8    102.2    111.8    122.3

    Unit:                      %
    Conversion name:           rel_uw_b200
    Conversion formula:        f(phys) = 0.0 + 655.350 * phys
    Bitmask:
    Address:                   0x815554
    Data type:                 UWORD
    X-axis:
      Unit:                    % PED
      Conversion name:         relPED_uw_b100
      Conversion formula:      f(phys) = 0.0 + 327.68 * phys
      Data type:               UWORD
    Y-axis:
      Unit:                    U/min
      Conversion name:         nmot_uw_q0p25
      Conversion formula:      f(phys) = 0.0 + 4.00 * phys
      Data type:               UWORD

We usually have to keep in mind that the defined values are not necessarily in terms of a fixed value and are determined by patterns at different times and conditions. The same goes for the other rows