NefMoto

Hi, I feel a bit lost when it comes to adjust my timing for my new GT28 setup with E85. I feel like i can give it more timing in some areas where the Gt28 is not boosting as the k03 did. But i fell a bit lost right now on how to hunt for better timing.  Right now i have maximum timing 41.25 degrees, hom much more can i add when using E85.

Im looking for logging methods on how to calibrate timing on E85..  When i tuned this engine on 98okt I logged and looked for timing retard and lowered ign when i ran into knock. I also listened to knock but with E85 it difficult.

E85 tuning has nothing to do with knock.

Even worse, you seem to think that more timing means more power.

Except the fact there mostly isn't any with E85.

More timing does mean more power. Up to a certain point.

Best way to adjust timing on cars using E85 is on a dyno, due to the lack of knock sensor feedback/ correction.

I'm not an expert on E85 by far, but I have tuned a handful of cars on a dyno using E85.

Well the correct question would be how to get better timing nyet..

Here in sweden almost every tuned car runs E85.. I think E85 is cheating :)  I get the sense that i can add more and more timing.. I did a test @ low rpm adding ALOT of advance... The engine was working against it self lol...

vwaudiguy a dyno would be the best... hmm.. alot of people often say add 2 degrees all over the map but.. As you say Nyet.. more timing isnt always more power..

how about tuning as good as it gets on 98okt and then add a clalculated timing to compensate for the lower flamespeed?..

You can add much more than that, if you're speaking of advance on top of optimal with pump (93octane in the US) fuel.

Yes I agree.. In the MAX load running 95okt I could max go 11.5 degress timing 6500rpm@1.5Bar..  But today i changed over to E85.. I now have 25degrees timing in the same area and the car pulls like hell.. But I can not be certain if its the best timing..I might be able to get more with less timing. That only he dyno can tell i guess..

@ partial throttle i feel its abit more difficult to find the best timing.

Just find the point where the pistons get pushed backwards and the crank starts spinning backwards, then retard a few degrees, done.

 :D lol

Bullshit.

Yes, regurgitated bs, I retract and apologize.  I did use this method, and it seemed to have worked as I wanted it to, but no dyno to prove that it actually did.

Without a dyno, FATS time is an indicator you could use.  You could also measure time over a certain rpm range to get a rough idea of ideal advance.  Obviously nothing will measure torque the same way a dyno will.

This wont tell you WHERE/WHEN to change timing at all.

Read the next sentence.  But, I'm obviously not adding any value to this thread...  I digress.

Cilinderpressure sensor Will tell a lot. But dyno is easiest..


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Yes, but do you have a reasonable way to measure this?

A cylinder Pressure sensor!.. I need it.. Where is it..  Sounds like it costs alot. 

To begin with i can just try changing the ignition i the areas where I now know that i dont have any turbo boost..
Why I started to wonder about the ignition thing is because I am now running a much more bigger turbo with greater lag. The stock ign curve is adapted to the K03/K04 fast spool..   I mean the K03 hits 0.5 bar almost instantly and the ign advance have been retarded in this area of the map.... So in my understanding i now have a "Hole" in the map because i now have more lag..   

But what if I just log the boost from my GT28 setup and see how much boost I have in an particular area of the map, then i could adjust timing a little bit to optimize a bit. The goal is just to try to compensate with little extra timing where i now no longer have the early K03 Boost. To me this feel it feel reasonable to ad at least one or two degrees in my dead zone of this turbo setup..

You can find tons of info on e85 tuning in certain mitsubishi forums which apply perfectly in your "ignition tuning matter" . Find a good dyno cause that will be the best way to do such changes.

(https://i.stack.imgur.com/jiFfM.jpg)

Prj.... you are one funny guy.. knows alot but wont share any knowlede.. why are you even in this forum lol.. im starting to se what person you are haha... even if ppl not always are the smartest you hit on them... it musy mean one thing.. born with a small turbo.. 

You are trying to run before you can walk.
You don't have any idea how the engine works inside but you try to tune a complex factory ECU.

The stuff you wrote just shows your blissful ignorance - and I pointed it out.
There are plenty of books about engines and tuning I recommend reading them - I did.

yeye heard those words before from you prj...


I might have missed something in the thought process about ignition here. I just realized i will never be in that area of the map since i no longer will reach that point of load% with my old smaller turbo... How could i miss that one..

He may be mean but he isn't wrong..

Thanks for qlarifying this nyet.. you are a big help helping me with things i dont understand by saying i dont understand.. as usual..

You keep on getting told to read up on how engines work and you keep on ignoring the advice then complain people won't help you.....

Here's a couple of questions for you to ponder.

What factors affect the ignition advance you can run?

What happens when you advance or retard ignition timing?

Stop being lazy and asking for people to do things for you that you can easily do for yourself.

Why should everyone here be responsible for writing a book about motors for you to read here?

Ey man read the whole thread..

This was my question

"Im looking for logging methods on how to calibrate timing on E85..  When i tuned this engine on 98okt I logged and looked for timing retard and lowered ign when i ran into knock. I also listened to knock but with E85 it difficult"..


vwaudiguy Gave me a good answer wich confirmed my thoughts and doubts that I had. Thank you man for being helpfull!

It's a 3D map - think where the look up point will be when using a larger turbo than original.

 

ok:)

I´ll have been calibrating for some days now. It now pulls really good around 1.4bar and EGT´s are no concern. I want up to 2.2bar..  I can post what i have so far with some logs later today when i am on my tuning computer..

Are you using an external sensor? OE model isn't correct anymore.

If you don't have access to a dyno and you have a straight, flat, SAFE bit of road, you can try this:

I'm not saying this will work or be reliable, but could be a last resort kind of thing. Any wind or variation in how you start your runs will all but nullify your results. Other assumptions: same gear, no wheel spin, fueling and EGTs are sorted.

Lower your overall timing well below what you know to be good, noticeable power (within reason). Do several identical runs to get a baseline. Add an extra column next to RPM, then subtract the previous row RPM from current row RPM to get the RPM difference for each row. Better yet, I believe there is a RAM variable for diff in RPM you can log. Graph rl, RPM, RPM difference, and timing out by time (x-axis) or just graph rl, RPM, and timing by RPM. The latter will not require fooling around with resetting the timestamp per run. To graph by time you have to zero out time at the precise beginning of ever run in the data (add extra Timestamp column), so that each run lines up on the same graph. Here is where you'll find out if this method is even possible by how consistent or not consistent your results are between runs. Assuming they are somewhat consistent, then continue.

Logging at least RPM,rl_l, and timing out, bump timing in a small, 1-2 node rpm area you know gets touched during your runs. Bump it a noticeable amount (again within reason). Then do a few more runs. Here is another point where you'll find out if this method is doable. If you can clear see a bump in the RPM difference lines around the RPM area where you made your change, then you might be able to use this method.

Now just continue to adjust, run, log, graph until the RPM difference lines no longer increase (or less of an increase) for a timing increase. Then back timing off a little at that point.

Simplified example:
(http://creativeion.com/rey/vw/help/road_tuning_mbt.gif)

With RL logged, you can extrapolate where timing changes had an effect. You could play around with RPM diff by diff'ing the row after or the row before to see which way matches more closely with your changes.

Looking at the two graphs, it would seem graphing by RPM gives a false negative after a bump in power. So, maybe graphing by time with the extra data conditioning step is better.

This is all theoretical and may not work at all. Maybe difference in power via RPM difference isn't big enough to distinguish from normal variations between runs.  I haven't tried it.

**spot saved for prj's "ignorance is bliss" comment**

edit: ah crap, did he already say that in this thread ? :(

This needs to be done on a dyno or not at all. You can basically try setting KFZW to KFZWOP, but that's about it.

PCP starts to rise very sharply once you exceed MBT, it is dangerous for the engine.