NefMoto

Hello beautiful people,
this is my 1st post/thread on here, and first of all thanks for creating this amazing FREE software. Now, as the title says I have got an 2000 Audi A4 avant 1.8 wihout a turbo ARG engine code, and im planning to convert it to a t3/t4 turbo with some mild boost (max 8 PSi), prolly aiming for like 200-250 whp, without forged internals obv etc.
So I did some reading before etc. so if i slap a turbo on this car, with stock tune etc it wont run the best, so im planning to fix that myself using these softwares.

So some information:
- The car has a 8D0 906 018 Q / 0 261 206 318 ECU  with 99. august timestamp ,which is an ME7.5 apparently, and also this is the ecu used in the 1.8 turbo variants. According to this https://wiki.obdtuning.de/index.php?title=Bosch_ME_7.5_(Audi) (https://wiki.obdtuning.de/index.php?title=Bosch_ME_7.5_(Audi)) it is not readable/flashable thru OBD unless in bootmode, I also dont know what kind of memory layout it has , but according to this
it should be 400bb , and not flashable thru OBD. Now I actually have a HEX-CAN-USB rosstech cable( prolly a knockoff) but it doesnt work with anything except VCDS, tried nefmoto/unisettings/ etc , multiple drivers , disabling intelligent mode , but nope. So im planning to buy a VAG KKL cable which should work with Nefmoto.

Now some questions:
- Can i use this ECU if i turbo the car, if yes, what kind of memory layout will I need to use if I use nefmoto, and is it possible to flash it thru OBD/nefmoto ?
- I can get the VAG KKL cable pretty cheap , but for double the price ( still cheap ) I could get a MPPS v16, which one should I go for ? obviously the MPPS supports more ECU's etc. if i Read right.
- For the turbo setup I'm planning to get an AEB intake manifold , and the 2 car/manifolds have different vacuum setups, the turbo one has way more, but afaik i wont need most of them , so can I mockup the vacuums from the non turbo ones , to the turbo manifold ?( the ones needed like - brake booster, PCV, EVAP)

That's pretty much what came to my mind right now. I would appreciate it a lot if someone could answer my questions :P Thank you very much .

I will be aware of this post.
I also want to put a turbo to an atmospheric petrol, an alpha 147 with ME7.3.1
I have read that it can be done but it has a lot of work

Enviado desde mi Redmi 3 mediante Tapatalk

Well I'm planning on getting  turbo exhaust manifold - block off wastegate port ( coz turbo has internal  wg of 8psi) , get a turbo intake manifold of 1.8t , oil feed/ drain should be straighforward, piping is quite cheap here ( Romania) , Open Downpipe until I get a proper one made, and injectors most likely. Shouldn't be that expensive.

I can't answer your questions, but wouldn't it be a lot cheaper & easier to just swap the engine from a doner vehicle?

No . I dont think so , I also don't have the necessary tools for an engine swap :)

So, I just bought a KKL cable... to find out it has a CH340 chip.. that's one question of the way... Anyone can help with the rest :D ?

this seems cool and im willing to help. because you car is me7 that helps you out a ton. really you still need to add the map sensor wiring to the ecu, its 5v, signal, and ground. the other thing id consider is swapping to wideband lambda, its as simple as adding 1 more wire to the ecu. now youll have a clone of a wideband 1.8t minus vvt. id even be willing to help with a base file to get it running. do yourself a favor and get mpps v13 or higher, get a ft232rl obd cable too

:) that be nice. as for the maf/map I was planning to use the stock one , mounted on turbo inducer.2nd by you saying add a wideband , I guess this ecu is a narrowband one., how would I go on about adding a wideband lambda instead of the one existing ( dont forget im planning to run an open DP until i can make one ) 3rd What do you mean non VVT, I thought the chain tensioner handles stuff like that no ? Also will get an mpps and galletto + a ftdi chipped cable.

All in all, this wont be completed anytime soon - just ran out from money and I dont work so, until I find a job , rip :) But I would appreciate if you add me somewhere :P

Well. I just got my turbo today... now to get money somehow to continue the project :D

OK what he is saying is, you can add one wire and make ecu a wideband, which would allow use of a 1.8t wideband ecu
and make this tune wayyyy easier also you will need to a map sensor.

Why do I need a map sensor , and how would I mount it on the turbo intake manifold ? Can't I just use the stock maf on turbo ?

Hi Blazius, perhaps there's a little confusion here.
You need the MAP sensor to measure pressure / vacuum. MAF's meter the induced air.

Marty and Carsinc have just told you what the best process is.
Your best approach here, in my opinion that is, would be firstly stick to there advise exactly and without question.
And with regards to mounting your MAP, you don't have to. The manufacturer has already done an excellent job of it for you.

Can't I just use the stock maf on turbo ?............................
You need both of them.
Again though......... "The manufacturer has already done all this for you".

All the very best
O.T.

Allright , thanks, so apparently I would have to get a MAP and use the MAF too ? But didn't a4 1.8t not come with MAP until 2000? So say I would get a pre 2k Intake manifold , would I be able to still mount it ? Also could this be done with a narrowband ECU 1st, kinda want to keep it low on money, and make sure it works mechnically etc. until getting a wideband 1.8T ecu , if I can find one in my country for not absurd prices. ( Romania ).

its a charge pressure sensor that goes pre throttle, its used by the ecu to read charge pressure only it never sees vacuum. you can you your stock naf but youre going to want to run the iat sensor in the intake like normal 1.8t engines. if youre using a stock intercooler(s) then the flange to mount the sensor is on the core end tub

Allright. Thanks for the info, I actually dont know where my IAT is on the nonturbo car, gonna have to find it. As for IC i might get an used one from a stock turbo'd car ( not neccessarly audi 1.8t, depends how much one costs for the audi 1.8t) and it still should work right ?

https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=261953&dateline=1374238934


RED ARROW is iat, on turbo cars the iat is in the intake.

on na cars its in the maf

Allright, you think I can take it out separetly , or its builtin ? Cause then I would have to use the MAF at the throttle body instead of the turbo , relocating it still works right ?

You can use a 1.8t intake sensor or 2.7 and wire it in. I've done it a bunch of times...even 2 on a blown audi r8.

Allright nice, so I would just have to splice into the MAF wiring ( 5 pin one) where pin 1 is the IAT sensor circuit with one pin of the IAT sensor , and the other pin to pin3 on MAF connector ( for ground ) or pin 2 12 V , how does the IAT work ?

So , it has been while since I posted here... what happend since then.. Not much :D I got the turbo a while ago. so i will post some pics of it ... the rest is in waiting, currently unemployed so no money to get all the parts to get it running roughly atleast. Hopefully next year spring or something.

Anyway.. its a ebay turbo t3/t4 8 psi internal wg.

https://i.imgur.com/Crz0i5Y.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/96ffnhC.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/spggOjY.jpg

https://vimeo.com/297681693

T04e stock block e85. 24-25psi 27° max advance

309 whp ? what motor code ? Seems crazy, but there is a guy in the country who runs 351 HP on a stock 1.8 for 2+ years now lol

So, I have been reading the responses but there is still some confusion I would like to clear up.

1st, Do I NEED a MAP on IC or not, also how does a MAF and MAP work at the same time , also I dont understand how would the wiring work.
2nd, If I need a MAP I guess I need an IAT, which is straight forward , as it takes ground and 5v , which could be spliced from the MAF ( I guess).
3rd, Wideband lambda.. as the current ECU is narrowband, from what ive read it takes a bit to convert to wideband, I know it makes tuning etc. way easier but I hope it could be run without it decently.

4th, Would this setup work and would it be tuneable atleast to get it working alright or not , as this is what I understood clearly so far :P.

(https://i.imgur.com/1AaKacU.png)

Thanks :)

MAF is used for fueling and load based decisions, MAP is used for boost control.

If you intend to use Motronic, MAP is a misnomer because the boost sensor for Motronic is upstream of the throttle body, and does not actually read intake manifold pressure.

IMO don't take this wrong, but i do not think you have the knowledge, ability or experience to do this properly; you need to read a lot more about engine management in general, not to mention FI control etc.

The right way to do this is indeed a motor swap btw. The Motronic NA and FI ECUs are very different, even if they are both for 1.8.

Well. the project as I said is still far away,also that is why I posted it here to see what is up, but I got quite confused with the replies , as some people said get x, then others said get Y ( Don't get me wrong either I appreciate all answers.), but from what I understand everything on these ECU is load based /calculated, but essentially what am I asking is what is the simplest way to slap a turbo on this engine and make it run average( not some super perfected tune , maybe in a few years). And if I manage to fuck up with all the answers provided, then it's my fault , oh well :P

This is kind of the wrong way to go about learning about these motors, motronic in particular.

You really should be starting with a 1.8t motor and matching ECU, and learning how to tune that first.

Alternately, you can take the standalone approach and ditch motronic entirely, but the risks are much, much, much higher.

If you are indeed on a budget, you are asking for trouble.

You'd better have enough cash floating around that you can get a replacement motor, etc.

And if you had that kind of cash, you'd already have a 1.8t motor sitting around, along with the tools (and ability) to swap it :/

I see. :/ As for 1.8T motors , yes there are some for sale in the country, but there are issues like transport and stuff, I'm sure it is way easier to get stuff in USA, here not so much :P that is why sometimes we have to cheap out / go for ghetto setups , but that does not mean we/I dont want to do it properly :P As for mechnical experience , I got some of that but most of that is suspension / replacement parts, not swaps so that is definitly out from the plans, and if I must do it, then I'll call help for sure, but hopefully I wont need it :).
As for cash,I'll definitly wont/cant start it until I dont have a stable income and stashed money , to get urgent , replacement stuff if something goes wrong. :)

423 wheel horse power and 309 wheel torque brah

I am not sure how many folks around here actually successfully converted an N/A engine to turbo, but I did, and it lasted for 60kkm before the shell got rotten, I had to move countries, the turbo setup and control system I (proudly) built went to another and another owner - the setup still runs and feels fine (will soon be 10 years that it does). Base engine 73HP, 1.2 8V, end result 0.8/1.0bar boost on a suitably matched turbo and 120-125 HP (these engines can do waaaaay more, but unconditional reliability was the target).

Now, that was a cheap (compared to what guys do here) and straightforward Fiat engine, which I could probably now do blindfolded. The cash required was between 5k-7k Euros (estimation, I stopped counting after 5k, not brave enough) and that considering I had many things sourced second hand in good quality from trustworthy people. The development time was around 2 years for ECU / control work plus 1 year of engine work to get the first start up and car running, plus another 1 year of calibrations, fine tuning, small upgrades, etc. My experience was probably not that much higher than OP's BTW. Oh, and I read two books about the topic "Street turbocharging" and "Maximum boost", can't recall the authors, google is your friend.

So trust me, it's not about knowing where/if to place sensor X or Y, or where to splice +5V from, you have to DESIGN this if you do not want to finish your ride at the end of the parking lot ;)

Ah my bad, that is really nice, pushing over 300 hp on a stock motor is crazy in my opinion.


I see, good to know somebody actually done some conversion from na to turbo successfully, I know it is actually quite common on the honda civic's because they can take some power, and the engine, management is way simpler than on here , from what I've read.
We'll see what happens, It will be a nice learning experience hopefully, and I also got you beautiful people helping me :D.
BTW i'll read those books, "street turbocharging" is from Mark Warner, and the other one is by Corky Bell, if uncle google is right.

So update:

...
 I was about to go to somewhere, where at 5-6k RPM i hear some noise, and see the car lost power then oil lamp came on and pulled over immidietly.. Turns out the exhaust camshaft pulley came off.. RIP
The pin literally broke which shouldnt be possible unless the integrity was damaged..

A pic or 2

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/496481804644122658/507523072094633989/IMG_20181101_133640.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/pQzKhpW.jpg

How are we lookin' ? :/

Welp. How hand's on are you? Surly the valves are bent to shit. Find another 20 head and plop that on. The pulley must have been loose. The keyway is only for aligning the cam with the right orientation of the pully. Pull the head off and upload some pics hopefully it's just a few bent valves. If you wanna sell the intake cam from your current failed head I'd be happy to buy. Here in the USA we don't have the naturally aspirated 1.8t and the cams are good for boost for a large framed turbo.

Yea.. I am pretty hands on, just went to local mech who i know, and said the head is p much a good amount of money.. There is another na 1.8 in the village, and he advised it might be better to buy that, swap engine and have a spare car for parts. But we will see buying a motor from the country is sketchy dunno what they are selling. Im gonna take off VC now and upload pics of that for now. I cant take off the head until the cars at home :p

Where are you from? I have tons of stock valves I could send you post just pay shipping

I am from EU more specifically from Romania as you can see on the license plate :P , I very much appreciate your effort for trying to help , very generous , I am not sure how much would the shipping cost.
I took off the VC, and it does not look to bad, except.. you will see on the pics :/

https://i.imgur.com/pfMs39I.jpg - As you can see some of the pin in the keyway is still in there stuck.

https://i.imgur.com/IBZb2zb.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/hUQWku0.jpg - some front bearign shots

https://i.imgur.com/h6iV0NU.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/7pjD0gZ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/SL5cLny.jpg - Well ,wtf is that... How did a bolt get there, and from where, it damaged the lobe a bit, and the metal too around, and the lifter too I'm pretty sure i seen some chunks , or damaged metal there, hard to see without taking cam off, it completely jammed.

https://i.imgur.com/5DVbI56.jpg - another shot of it

https://i.imgur.com/98Nphtt.jpg - damaged lobe

https://i.imgur.com/WfFVgx0.jpg - you can see the bolt threads scraped off , metal scrape etc.

https://i.imgur.com/wjmHUBr.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ayMgrrh.jpg


So I don't know what to think of it :/ Need to get head off to see pistons I guess, hopefully tommorow , when car gets towed home , literally sitting at a shitty train station...
I wonder where that bolt came from and why..

It is common mistake to put the gear on wrong way round which results in broken key and engine damage sometimes. Gear goes on freely both ways, but when placed wrong, key breaks off when tightening the bolt. I've seen lots of broken gears like this and always remind anyone taking it off to put it back right way, otherwise it will break.
BTW I'm running turbo converted N/A AVV engine. Used N/A block and head with pistons, exhaust valves, camshafts and manifolds from turbo version. Had to drill a hole in the block for turbine coolant line and turbo support bracket (which I actually forgot but it's holding on good anyways  ;D ).

Looks like a old head bolt got lodged in the cam? Regardless looks like the head was off prior for one reason or another or swapped with another?

Nice to hear your conversion went good :P tho afaik na camshafts are better for turbo application , no ?

As for wheel I dont know honestly. I did not touch the sprocket at all. I got the car from germany last year august and only did 7000 km with it since.


I did not take the head off at all since I got the car. Only thing I did is replace the cam chain tensioner in may, and corrected timing to be exact in june/july (was off by half or less tooth, car ran fine tho..) And there was no foreign object. Though one thing did happen, and that was an overheated block because a bad gasket literally let all the coolant out while going towards city, water indicator cane on , but i ignored it cause i literally checked it 5 mins ago , so i thought it was complaining about low water level, but in the city at one point i saw smoke and oil lamp came on, and immidietly pulled over and let car cool down on air and used warm water to fill up.

But I dont think that caused any damage.. One thing i noticed and assumed it was an illusion or normal is that the sprocket might have been spinning off center ? But Im not sure. Anyways I dont know whats next.. A valve job would cost me like 500 usd with local mechanic.. If I do it myself just the valves(no guides, etc.) are like 100 usd , used engines are going for 100-200 usd with 200k kmish or lower, so might bite bullet and get one of those.. What do you think?

for the price id try and find a new engine. find a turbo variant if you can pistons are forged not cast and exhaust valves can handle a bit more. id do timing service, cam tensioner pads, cams seals while you have it out

Well turbo motors are around the same price, but I was hoping to swap head only , depening how the block looks , which i was supposed to take off tonight, but only could get halfway cause the sun is going down early, but tommorow we will see, So I was thinking same motorcode, because one issue with the turbo one is for example the VC has a vent vacuum etc, so the vacuums might not match up , these thing are what I am afraid off criss crossing parts :P

EDIT: My current tensioner is brand new it has like 1000km on it, so I dont need to change that :P

LOL, I am so blind, I was rechecking my pics, https://i.imgur.com/ayMgrrh.jpg and noticed that that bolt is actually from the camshaft bearing as you can see near the tensioner.. So I think what happend, is that bolt came loose ,started flying around in VC, caught the intake , which blocked it for a split second, that made exhaust, and the intake not be in time, which is why the crank tore off the wheel from the cam . Is that possible or this is just a secondary product from the wheel coming off ?
I know that crank is spins the exhaust which spins the intake , thats why im asking :P

Long blocks are the same externally, you can use accessories from your car on  the replacement engine regardless of factory turbo engine or not. While your at it try and see if you can grab a set of injectors from injectors too. Saab reds, Volvo greens, audi tt 225, or even mk4 180 injectors. Save your self some money if you can get from a bone yard

I dont believe they are the same, i know that turbo VC has a vacuum ,  that port is blocked off on the NA one , second the coil on NA are different so holes dont match , and 3rd that i know is that turbo block has extra holes for water cooling the turbo as an oil feed, correct me if im wrong.

So swap the valve coverage the problem? I use 2l 8v bottom ends all the time with 20v heads. I'd bet a 20v na would be very close to the na 20v. Also you'd be best off using the short runner intake from the turboed car and vent the valve cover to help expel positive crank vent once turboed.

Yeah, i See im taking off the head right now, just resting a bit, pics coming when im finished P

Well... I could not finish the job today, gets dark at like 4:50 PM .. and this shiet is a PITA, the PCV system, Intake manifold is jammed up AF the back, old hoses etc.
Anyway all that is left is exhaust manfifold then It is free, but for now check out the valves from intake .. Honestly. these dont look that bad, they are all on the same level.

Cylinder 1 - (https://i.imgur.com/THGNCAb.jpg)

Cylinder 2 -(https://i.imgur.com/zmeGtKI.jpg)

Cylinder 3 - (https://i.imgur.com/cfc1uQO.jpg)

Need a new head anyway so it literally does not matter if the valves are good or nah, because the intake cam is fucked.

Also found this little guy wedged into the secondary fan :D

(https://i.imgur.com/SkM8Yu5.jpg)

Turbo and n/a valve covers are almost the same. You can modify plug holes for 3rd and 4th cyl with some grinding tool to fit the coils. Early turbo covers didn't had a ventilation. Only 06A covers had ventilation from factory.
Hole in the block for coolant can be drilled easily, there's a place for it already and iron is soft metal, drills like butter. Oil sump doesn't have oil return hole, but mine had template for it - i just had to tap 2 threads and finish drill a hole in casting.
Regarding N/A cams being better - you might get some power increase up top with large sized turbo, but on small turbos it can make things even worse. I had n/a exhaust cam for a while, lost some low down power and K03 is out of breath where the gain could be so I swapped it back.
If you have any questions about n/a -> turbo parts compatibility, ask here, I can help with that.  ;)

My bad , actually realised that the holes are the same patttern as on the standalone 1.8t coils, so that leaves the VC , but i guess i could just use my current one on the turbo head , lol, about water holes, what I mean afaik the turbo block or head has holes for the ko3 turbo, now i DONT need those holes , as this ebay t3t4 turbo is oil cooled only, about oil pan, I guess i would just weld a bung and done, and run the oil feed from pressure sending unit, that is the standart way, now that is when I get it turboed which wont be this year.
Now my main dilemma is , you guys are saying I should get a turbo block which are like 33% more expensive, but I am only gonna use the head from it HOPEFULLY, depending how the lower end is when i take off the head.
Now second IF I only replace head from turbo block, how would the cams and valves work with NA?
About pistons being forged in turbo, i found out OEM codes for NA pistons and wrote to MAHLE for differences between the 2 pistons apart from C:R.
Now the reason the reason I am thinking(and hopefully) to replace head only is because if I want to up the boost or go for big HP then obviously i would replace pistona/conrods, but for now 8psi from .50ar shouldnt be that much, still have to do correct math on it. Or if i dont wanna shell out 600 euros on forged aftermarket pistons , MAHLE turbo pistons i can buy for 85 usdish new /per.
 :)

EDIT: Everything is done except taking the head off... its a 058 block with polydrive bolts.. I thought they were supposed to be triplesquare 12 pt , but nope.. So now I have to buy some polydrive bits from the city.. Meh.

So I just got an answer back from MAHLE about piston questions I asked earlier.

Hello Mr. blazius,

" The piston for the engine ARG is 033 13 00 and it is a casting piston.

The piston 033 04 00 is a forged piston and cannot be used for the engine ARG. "

Well , that clears it up but second part is bullcrap, its same bore , 20mm wrist pin, why wouldnt you be able to use it in an NA block ?

Another day gone.. So apparently there is not one shop where you can buy ribe/polydrive bits lol, so I ordered one from Bulgaria (lol) , but I'm gonna attempt to take them out with T50 Torx, I know some people said you CAN take them out but not put them back in , but I still dont feel it, how safe is it considered to remove them with Torx ?

I am tired of waiting so I can finally decide if I am getting a turbo block or not, the main issue is the price, if I dont need a turbo block ( because if I am going for high power, I will be replacing the bottom end anyway) then I wont get one, also I am still not sure how would the turbo cams perform in non turbo , and yeah the price : I can have an ADR or an ARG for 122 usd~ to 170 usd , so with timing belt + waterpump + gaskets would end up around 350 usd ish.

Now a turbo block is min 244 usd, or 318 usd for one with 170K km, and that would cost me around 450 usdish min, is it worth ?

8mm allen works good

One of n/a ADR engines I opened up had “double hex” (don’t know right name in english) head bolts instead of polydrive.
Be sure you get long enough polydrive tool, mine’s bit too short so I must remove front cam cap to reach the bolts.

Triple square

Cheers for that I took them off , pics at bottom.

Yeah. It is supposed to be triple square yes, as old 058 should be but this engine is kinda like a hybrid 06A- DBW, polydrive bolts ,who knows what else, but I took them off with 8mm hex, but also yeah I ordered a polydrive tool. Check out pics at bottom.


So I took the head off today finally , pics attached. There is one valve definitly bent, you can also see it a lil bit on the piston, and cylinder 4 exhast valve juuuuust clipped it a bit, I feel like I'm quite lucky.

Another thing I am wondering is why are the cylinders so clean, except for the last one ? Any insight?

Anyway, judge it and tell me what's the play here bosses :D , Cheers :P


https://imgur.com/a/km9Adx6 - album link, multiple pics

Do yourself a favor and use a head gasket with a thicker spacer so you drop compression a tad. Flat top pistons in that thing means your compression is north of 10:1. Turboed 1.8 20v are around 9.25:1 Stock

Allright, will try but for that I would have to know the original mm , and find a manufacturer that list the thickness, I thought turbo comp was around 9,5:1 ish , but for NA its 10.3ish.

As for the engine , what is next ? As you can see the 1 intake valve is bent, scratched the piston I can barely feel it with my nails, 2 of cylinder 4 exhaust valves are just a dat chipped aswell as the piston ( cant feel with nails) , the intake cam lobe is a bit fucked , aswell as lifter1 ,2 for cylinder 3 is stuck right now because of screw, but they dont seem to be damage , so a light tap should free them .
Should I buy 1 intake valve ,headgasket and timing and water p. or new engine use the head, clean it up etc. + timing , hg, pump , or replace the whole engine If I get a new engine ?

I am trying to go for the lowest amount of money, but keep in mind if I only do that 1 valve, I will try to boost mildly it like the original plan was , and then later on If I want higher power then I'll 100% upgrade stuff but that is later on .


EDIT: I still dont get why is cylinder 4 so dirty and the rest are cleaner, and also to me it looks like there is a bigger gap on exhaust side of bore than on the rest, what I failed to mention probably is that the engine was boiled once accidentaly , but It was fine, cleaned up etc. but that is probably why that screw came loose and fucked the whole engine, what do you think ?

PS: Buy Gates powerGrip timing belt :))), I still cant believe it tore the cam sprocket off and the timing belt didnt break with 72k KM on it.

The bolt broke and the keyway sheared. The belt wouldn't break because of that. I'd the head locked up and didn't turn that would rip the belt. 10.3:1 is really high for pump fuel and turbo so I'd still consider a thicker head gasket. Anything you can feel in the piston you'll wanna clean up with some really fine sand paper to remove the possibility of hot spots. Pull the cams out of the head you have currently and do a gas test. If you can get away with only replacing a few valves that would be your cheapest bet. Gas test is when you dump gas into the runners and see if it leak past the valves. Look on YouTube for a vid if you need

You can also flip the head upside down with cams removed and pour some coolant in combustion chamber. It will leak past valves if they are not sealed tight.

Hmm, possible but that does not explain why the bolt came loose and fucked the cam up and lifter nr 3 for cylinder and lifter 1 for cylinder 3 , they are currently stuck in there because the bolt dmgd the casting , so idk how to remove them, everything else is removed, also I am not sure what you mean for pump fuel, I am running 98 octane sport fuel , so it decent , but yeah will get a 1.35mm thick hg, the standart is around 1.25mm i think, will know for sure 2 morrow. Also checked the warpage on head, its okay, but what i noticed that on the block on cyl.4 the gap on exhaust side between piston and wall is much bigger than the rest. Ill put some coolant in combustion chamber and see whatsup.

I filled up combustion chambers with coolant, and as expected they did not leak a drop except for the one with the bent valve. Now, the issue is that bolt broke in the exhaust cam, and there is no way I am getting it out from it , second 2 lifters are stuck , and I have no idea how to remove, them but there is no easy and cheap way to do this, At minimum I need an exhaust cam, maybe an intake cam, and 1 intake valve , that would be almost as much as an used motor... even if I go to junkyard they would ask me ridicolous price for 1 cam, most likely , what to do :P?

edit: some more pics
https://imgur.com/a/fW3l5eL

PS: Thank you guys for help so far, I appreciate it a lot , cheers :P

Broken bolts usually can be removed either by welding a nut on them or using the right tools (again, don't know right name in english, but it's something like reverse thread tool - drill a hole in the bolt and use a tool to turn it out) , but it's not worth it in this case, cam lobe is damaged anyway.
It's quite hard to recommend what to do due to different part availability/prices/budget in different countries. I'd look for complete head from any 1.8 20v engine which comes up cheapest.  ::)
Valves are available new aftermarket, but then again, depends on price/availability on your side.

Yes I have extracted broken bolts /studs with a welded nut. Or a reverse twist drill bit. If that doesn't run it out you could use an extractor at that point. Normally they back out easy

Eh, welding is not something I've done but I can ask my dad and see if he can weld in such tiny space, idk :D Also the intake cam is the one thats damaged a bit, the exhaust cam should be fine apart from the sheared keyway and the remainder of the bolt in it,and the head too  EXCEPT the 2 lifters that you can see on the pics are mega stuck , I dont know how to get them out, I tried magnet, rubber mallet/hammer, etc. I think I am gonna try heating it up with a blowtorch or something and see if it comes out, but I am not sure If I want to run a head where the lifters can get stuck potentially.

I was looking for turbo motor yesterday, approached a guy too , but If I am only going to use the head I dont think its worth spending 33% more than an NA block, as you said I was looking for it for the pistons and crank but found out that 1.8t cranks(most) are cast just like NA ones so, rip that.

Yes, 058 cranks are the same on n/a and turbo as well as rods, but they differ from year to year or something like that (small end width)
You can try to drill a smal hole in the lifter and screw a wooden screw there. Then you will have something to pull with.

06a are forged crank and pistons. I wouldn't be too worried about bottom end vs bottom end tho. I feel at this point your best bet is to use your current bottom end withba replacement head complete. It's not worth risking a stuck lifter bucket and habe it crack. It would be quicker and easier in the long run. I'd still get a head gasket spacer too. I keep bringing it up because on lowish octane fuel you're gunna have such low timing values

Yup, thats whats gonna be, I'm going to get an ARG block for around 170 usd , possibly lower, and replace the head , hopefully its in half decent state.
Also I measured the HG thickness it should be around 1.25mm , so I am going to get a 1.35mm ( from AJUSA only they listed thickness apart from Elring ) , and I never heard about HG spacer? I dont know If I can find such thing around here :/ ?

https://store.034motorsport.com/compression-dropping-head-gasket-1-0-drop-audi-volkswagen-1-8t-20v-multi-layer-steel.html

drops a full point so 10.3:1 to 9.3:1

Heh, I dont think that is available here :P I found this tho https://www.ebay.de/itm/VW-Audi-1-8T-Tuning-Zylinderkopfdichtung-Verdichtungsreduzierung-Seat-Skoda-20V/200941304839?hash=item2ec908fc07:g:Do0AAOSwPWRZUlXW:rk:4:pf:0
but I really dont have the money to shell out on this right now, specially if later on I wanna upgrade conrods and have to replace it again, also people said that thicker headgasket is a bandaid fix for lower compression also , the chance for HG failure is higher, what do you think about that ?

So for now I have got my eyes on an ARG engine for 170 usd, or an AEB for 245 usd. I dont think its worth paying that much more for the turbo one, with all the accessories ( timing belt , waterpump, HG , 3000 gaskets, its gonna cost me a fair bit :P)

With that t04e turbo you won't have issues with con rods. You can make 350whp 270 tq but up high in the rev range. The only thing is recommend is opening up the top and middle ring for thermal expansion. Because your making peak tq higher in the rpm range the duration time of tq is less then it would be of you made peak tq at 3500rpm or less. Small frame turbos make torque like a light switch (off and on).

https://youtu.be/3zVHgqIWhWY

https://youtu.be/gp5jJ1wl9JI


Stock block 250k miles 30psi e85 30°max advance 460whp 320wheel torque. 100$ eBay turbo. 3 years of daily abuse

Hm, what do you mean by top and middle ring ?  Also that passat is sick lol, sounds like a tractor at idle lol

the piston ring end gap. one of the biggest reasons theyll toss  a rod is from thermal expansion and rings binding on the cylinder walls. when this happens the piston wedges in place and the result is rods bending. opening the ring eng gap a bit will prevent this from being an issue. on lowish boost it wouldnt be a problem but its still somthing to consider   

Ahh, understood and opening to what degree to exactly, also if If im planning on running higher power, I would get conrods anyway, and swapping over the pistons from the new motor, which in the end to looks to be the AEB one, it also comes with a flywheel (prolly shot like crazy) and some other shit.

EDIT: So it's 100% I can use AEB head with a N/a block then ? i'm just making sure.

Yes the heads are interchangeable. You can put a 20v head on just about any vw 4 cylinder bottom. Only difference is older blocks are missing the 3 main oil returns on the back of the head. In your case you have nothing to worry about it's a direct swap. Stock end gap is normally 0.00015" I open that up to0.00035".

Allright, also you mean 0.015 " right ? ( 0.4mm)- 0.00015" is really small I never heard about that

I doubt there's much more science in those compression dropping gaskets than getting pair of normal gaskets, drilling out rivets that holds layers together and combining them to thickness you need. Kinda ghetto way, but i has been done and working.  ;D
Nice Passat  8)

Yeah most likely, thought manufacturers just use more steel layers(lol) and done and charge 3x as much more a normal one :P
I still dont know if its worth paying 44% more for a turbo block over standart N/A one , just for exhaust valve difference and cams - if there is any difference at all , dammit - cannot make my mind up lol

I don't think the adr pistons are forged. Also with the flat top pistons the compression will be really high and you'll need to run the hg spacer to keep it low enough to run boost on pump fue. The aeb has dished forged pistons and will give you a good compression for pump fuel. I guess it really depends on what you plan on buying. I think for the boost and power goals you have ether way would be fine

Yeah, ARG/ADR pistons aint forged, I got official answer back from Mahle. Say I get the turbo block, what would I need to know to switch pistons over? Keep in mind I got no engine stand or lift, so I would have to do in the car, (maybe I can rig up an engine stand for to take apart the other motor) , would I need to rehone the wall, etc. or just get new piston rings and bearings for rods  or just rings and drop them in like it right now ? Or should I clean up the wall at the top with 2000 grit sandpaper or something like that. I havent really touched any lower block so far, but its not rocket science so I'm willing to try.

edit: oh and will the stock ECU compensate for this change with the rest of the motor being stock, cause I dont have the bank to buy all the turbo parts necessary right now.

Why not just swap bottoms completely? Avoid pulling it apart for now.

No engine lift , etc , swapping over would be easier IMO from under the car.

Another thing .. AEB is a large port head, my current intake manifold is small port , how is that gonna work ?, small port gasket or big port headgasket ?

Feels like there's no easy solution here. Just a slightly less complicated one. Looking forward to reading how you pulled it off, Blazius.

So currently I was in talks with a dude for an AEB motor, but I dont know whats the end verdict, I want a motor asap, and the dude wants like 20 bucks infront as warranty that I am not scamming him(with shipping , not picking up , sendin it back ) ,but there are no banks near me and I dont have internet banking enabled atm, I am not really feeling it to be honest, this motor is 240 usd shipped.
I also started talking with another one that is the same engine code (ARG) for 170 usd , dunno about shipping yet, with apparently 180kkm , they seem more serious.

The issue is here that AEB is a large port head , and I got small port intake , 1st of all I dont know how would that work, and second as I said it seems dodgy to me tbh, now if its actually legit and I buy the other one (ARG) then I miss out on free turbo pistons, and if I want to run higher psi eventually either I get a thicker HG or get turbo pistons from somewhere.

Ahh, I think I'll say to the turbo one, if he wants to sell it Ill pay all the total when it comes with courier no paying in advance or bye, and if he accepts , good ( hopefully the motor is working LOL) and if he doesnt I'll get the normal one.

Use large port gasket and if you have access to grinding tools, port the manifold to match the gasket. Theoretically another way to drop compression ratio is to enlarge combustion chamber in the head. There is some metal to grind off. I'll get a piece of plexiglass and try to play with enlarging the chamber and measuring its volume on one of spare heads I have.  ::)

Yea , that is what I am going to do but no sanding tools really, so hand sand is gonna be fun. And yeah I seen "porting" the combustion chamber , but doesn't that introduce other issues, there is a vid on youtube of people doing it.
For now I am waiting until monday to see whatsup, also if I get that engine it comes with some bits and pieces, actually I can upload a pic.

(https://i.imgur.com/36U6KqD.jpg)

That flywheel is probably shot like crazy.. what I am afraid is , that its quite cheap for amount of money with all them accessories, but they offer warranty and factures so :)

Leave the bottom end that in the car alone use the thickest head gasket you can get and put a head in the block. Should be cheaper then a complete block and it will be up and running. Save up and buy a engine crane and piston rod combo down the road

There are head spacers for aeb style block

Yeah, that is what I'm gonna do , but I am going to dissassemble the head before installing, to soak it in diesel , cause its prolly gonna be sludged af , and I am going to do the same with the block, that is okay right or is it enough to get the lifters out and leave the valves in ?


You mean thicker headgasket? Yeah they are available, but they are quite expensive and I do not have the bank for it. I just need to get the car running so I can go to work :P

So , just got myself a valve spring compressor , a proper headbolt tool aswell :D, 2 little things cost a bazillion :D Now about the engine, gonna call the dude soonTM and see what he says.

so update:

Got the motor, hopefully its in a working state, was quite cheap for the price, also got a flywheel a stock turbo manifold on it , oil lines etc.
If I take it apart I'll lose warranty so yeah. we will see , I ordered the rest of the parts aswell , timing belt, gaskets etc. Pictures later maybe.

Do a compression test if it's even across the board, send it.

Sadly, I do not possess a comp tester right now, I can ask my local mechanic to borrow it I guess but its also a few miles away in a shop., I'm gonna take it apart anyway, it was a running motor before the car was dissassembled so I'll take his word for it. Even if its bad , I only need the head really and the exhaust cam so do not worry :)

Here are some pics https://imgur.com/a/Cv7Wfxl

Btw is there such a thing as stock 3 bolt to t4 adapter, and how would it work ? cause I am thinking I got a free stock manifold I could just get an adapter maybe ?

So, I took the head off today, everything looks fine ,allright wear... except for the tensioner :D completely destroyed, all the valves are fine though. Gonna pull them out tommorow, and give the head a diesel bath.

Took some more pictures: https://imgur.com/a/nT57qyF

Now, all the holes are "broken" - like you can see on pic #2 , is that supposed to be like that or not ?
All in all, im satisfied. Hopefully will go in the car on Saturday.

Update for today, I took all the valves and stems out (made a homemade tool from a nut and needle nose plier :D) , left the head in some diesel for tonight, gonna clean all the rest tommorow.
I still havent received the parts.. Hopefully tommorow,next week they are saying its gonna get real cold (below 0C and snow ) so I really wanna finnish the car.
I did a leak test, and noticed one of the valves was leaking slighty, can I lap it with toothpaste ? lol :D I dont have access to lapping compounds, or what can I do about it DIY, all the rest were fine and they'll go back in their spots so I aint touching them.

Bump,

Getting the parts tommorow, so I can start assembling shite.. still have to clean engine block top and sand the piston a tiny bit. Getting the valve keepers back in is gonna be a PITA ... still dont know what to do about that leaky valve, might just leave it like that, or use an intake valve from the other head. :/.

PS:Marty if u read this, I have sent you a PM, check it out if you want I guess :D

Well. I got the car assambled fully today, and its running fine :) I'm pleased :) Now back to original plan soonTM :D

Little update:

I am now constructing a flange for the stock manifold , it is already cut , now welded 3 studs( bolts with head cut off) in the flange.

(https://scontent.fotp3-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/48275841_216630432588566_6212805833026174976_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&_nc_ht=scontent.fotp3-2.fna&oh=bf961b6aa4d0e7064e87b64f3ddbdf53&oe=5CA92FB3)

What do you bois think ?

Also I do not know if youg guys heard about this product : https://ecumasterusa.com/collections/piggyback-engine-management/products/digital-ecu-tuner-3-4-bar?variant=8318137860157

it is extremely popular in Europe, because it is very good and you cannot beat the price it can be had for around 190 euros here, 450 usd over there for 4 Bar integrated MAP sensor , 420 for 2.5 bar version.
I am wondering if anynone gave it a try before , or anyone with money willing to do it :P

Any t3 turbo installed on that flange is gonna be so flow restricted it's not worth carrying on, your better off buying a cheap chinafold with a t3 port cast onto it they are only £126. Give it a good port and polish it won't be perfect but will be a million times better than running that flange on a stock manifold which is quite restrictive itself. Please do more research on hardware options. What turbo are you using?

I mean yes I know it will be , but honestly it the circumeference is almost the same as the mouth . Its a t3/t4 turbo, and yes probably I will get a china manifold but for now for 8 psi starters I will put this on.


What i mean basically , there is no restriction in the adapter itself. And yes I know the stock mani is the issue as I said :P

I have heard of it, a lot in fact, because I happen to be originally from the country that makes it. In Poland there is hardly any project these days that is not done either on their piggy back system (the ECU tuner) or their full standalone system (EMU). I mean for the projects where going on with the factory ECU is not a viable option (like adding turbo, complete engine swap, or other "heavier" mods). I never tried it (I am a strict factory ECU only person), but apart from problems with some very early hardware (I mean long years ago, they are around for a while now) that are now fixed, I have not heard terrible things (most problems people get are boostrapping the tune process when they have little experience), and people seem to be generally happy with the capabilities and flexibility, though it certainly has limitations. I know at least three people that use(d) these products, one of them holds a 1/4 mile record for his car model in our small type Fiat club. Customer support might be a general random thing in Poland though.

Interesting..


I just ran into some unforseen stuff.. The issue is that in stock orentation the turbo is too big downward and to the side too, Pic here;

(https://scontent.fotp3-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/47688666_1059137144247671_1320273505136148480_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&_nc_ht=scontent.fotp3-2.fna&oh=f47d129ad1c64dbe0aae49969e9b67fa&oe=5CB24301)

This is how it would fit.

and this is the space I have

(https://scontent.fotp3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/48268814_2465624200118331_8209453510945669120_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&_nc_ht=scontent.fotp3-1.fna&oh=900c59687298d9f599653cde8ccffcfb&oe=5CA58A38)

Is there any way to make it fit, the turbine/core juuust would fit from the measuerements but the compressor is too big, and if I clock it the wastegate doesnt match up..

So, I am getting an mpps v13 tommorow, to read flash from ECU, but from what I ve seen there are no xdf/definition for this ecu. What can I do, I cant even start looking at things the guides talk about.

I will have to keep this ecu for now and I am planning to run MAF , hopefully someone can help me. If anyone has an xdf or something that would work , that d be amazing.

http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=15390.0title=

So little update:


I have ordered some SAAB orange 380cc~@3bar injectors , a Ford Mondeo MK3 2.0 TDDI Intercooler , an AWT 1.8T intake manifold from a passat on christmas, and I am waiting for them now. I have also ordered a 1/8 NPT to AN4 adapter so I could use the stock oil feed from the turboblock so I need to swap over the oil filter housing.

Also made a custom drain for the turbo using the stock drain.

Also been doing some more reading and searching in the bin for maps and other stuff. For now I want to only mess with the timing and finding CWMDAPP codeword in the following days.

 ;)

So, I got the injectors yesterday bosch 0280156023 , also received the intake from a b5.5 Passat, aswell as the mondeo intercooler. I am really waiting on one thing and that is the turbo inlet adapter for the stock oil feed - 1/8npt to an4.

The issue is that its a basicalyl winter there is no way for me to work outside and not like my mood is there too q.q I want spring :)