NefMoto

I've been gathering info regarding hybrid turbo's.

What does the compressor wheel and turbine wheel say about a turbo, is there any way i can estimate how much more efficient it would be than a stock K03s? I'm hesitant on picking a hybrid because i'd like the best for my buck and there is so extremely much options and companies around that build them. I want to avoid getting a hybrid, and it only getting perhaps ~260-280hp.

I know there are hybrids that claim to do atleast 300+ and some have even seen upwards of 330+ hp. In combination with the hybrid i want to get Bosch 550cc's because they are dirt cheap locally.

What better place to ask than the experts on here i figured.

This should be the information for a stock K03s turbo
COMPRESSOR WHEEL
Inducer: 38mm
Exducer: 51mm

TURBINE WHEEL
Inducer: 45mm
Exducer: 38mm
Blades: 11

One of the hybrid turbo's i'm looking at has:
COMPRESSOR WHEEL
Inducer: 42mm
Exducer: 56mm
4 long / 4 short blades

TURBINE WHEEL
Inducer: 42mm
Exducer: 46mm
Blades: 12
Shaft length 99mm

Is there any way i could at least have a guess at what power it would make? As i said i'd like to get a really proper hybrid turbo, i'm not buying any chinesium made turbo's.

Hi! It would be easier for you to receive help if you provided more information on which brand/model it is, being information that is maybe more familiar to more users. Also, you can get a rough estimate of the HP rating by taking a look at the mass flow rate of the turbo.

Hello there, thanks for your reply.

I see so i'd need to ask for those figures. We have quite a few companies locally and i've contacted a few in order to get as much information on these turbo's before i decide which one i'll order.

I know about the popular ones too such as the BBT K300 and Littco L280 but those would need to be shipped from England. The companies locally i could pick up a hybrid for 600-800 euro's.

You could also buy it on ali
Its just a k04-023 chra with machined k03 housings
Funny thing but k03 turbo housing wont last long

Looks like you're right once again!

Compressor wheel is exact same specs as stock K04 023 and turbine wheel is slightly smaller.

I believe 023 turbo's do ~290 ish hp. But i'm after a hybrid capable of more. Also i'm willing to pay good for a proper turbo 600-800 euro's should get me something proper. I would rather not buy a low quality Ali turbo as i've heard they spool slower, and can blow within a few thousand KM's.

HE221 :)

Looks very interesting, but how straight does this bolt up to my 1.8T? (I'm guessing not at all).

What's needed to fit this, custom downpipe flange for sure, how would it bolt up to my manifold?

It mostly does not, ask fukenbroken he has one mounted with a td04 housing or something along those lines.

 Im sure all modifications would fit in your budget.

k03s very limited small turbine hosing
not worth it to buy

k04-023 hybrid turbo more potential
not any  problem 370-410hp

The reason i'm after a hybrid is because of how easy it would be to swap. Literally bolt on straight to my current setup, and there are hybrids around doing 320-330 which is about what i'm after.

K04 023 hybrid would be nice, but i'd need a new downpipe, manifold water and oil lines. A proper manifold is quite expensive really, and i'm not too sure about those cheap 150$ manifolds from china.

HE221 looks very interesting considering its price, but i'd need to get some custom parts @fukenbroken what did you have to do/buy in order to just get it fitted?

This is where i'm stuck at the moment as i'm willing to spend ~600-800 euro's in parts excluding labor because i'd do it myself.

Thats bollocks, havent seen a single hybrid ko4 hit those numbers under normal conditions, not F21, not f23s, not bbt k300, not littco 280  nothing. Those numbers are t3/t4 numbers and they have "massive" compressors.

If you can back that up with sources or etc I'd very interested in seeing it.

F23 and co will do 330 bhp, but you are likely to bend rods with it tbh, specially on the trapezoidal ones.

Yea... i'd need to keep the torque down i figured especially on lower RPM's to avoid bending rods.

I know the risk i'm taking with not forging my rods but I know multiple guys around running similar setups without blowing rods.

you are very lucky possible over 300hp k03s but approx max ~300hp
k04 not need full downpipe,  just use adapter
k04 chinafold approx 180$ +shipping and need porting but it does not crack
and yes k04 hybrid not cheap but you are buy k03s platform hybrid you are just simple go out the trash your money :)
not worth it

i made turbo and programing the car
engine bam pistons and H Beam rods ..etc
yes possible this Hp k04 hybrid

Have you got specs or link to that turbo? Fullboost at 3700~ peak torque at 4k , and 400 hp , everybody would be running that if wanted, im still skeptical without modlist and etc.


Besides that turbo would 100% bend stockrods with that much torque :/

GTX28 with small exhoust housing can do this on 100 oct

Alright I'll definitely look into the 023 swap.

Is it necessary to port the manifold?

Thing is, I don't have thousands to spend. At best I can spend 1000€ on upgrade parts excluding labour of course. At the very least I need a proper hybrid and 550cc injectors. I'm only looking for at best 330hp. My old turbo is slowly failing and as such I'm going for a slight upgrade.

Exactly but not a ko4 hybrid  without good fuel or somethnig along those lines, thats why I am skeptical about the dyno numbers or something. If its true I am impressed since its one of the best hybrid numbers ive seen. Usually people who go with hybrids get a knack for power speed etc, then you want more, then you have to sell your old setup and get a completely new manifold such as a t3, or t4 then so on.


But still, got any specs on that car/turbo sonique?

turbo same desing like g25-550 but little bigger
both side 9 blade
and g25-550 make 450hp turbo but bigger compressor side and tubine

turbine wheel outlet bigger than gtx28

attached pictures used manifold and adapter k03 76mm exhaust
and actual turbo

Thats impressive, got any link? How long has this car been running for? What about compressor side? inducer, exducer?

k04 chinafold yes not possible skip porting
because collector and all exhaust port very rough unworked
and size is not correct

yes not enough money buy in several details
only k04 hybrid turbo  ~1000€

this actual car completed 1 month ago
other one only running 370hp 1year ago this turbo spec not same size 

not make any video but i asking owner make after replaced the brakes because unable to handle this power

engine spec:
bam pistons
h-beam rods
600*300*76 cooler
740cc injector
4bar map
r32 maf +airbox
stock small port head
exhaust side little ported
stock ex cam / NA intake cam
no vvt
76mm downpipe 70mm after
etc..

Anyway, returning to topic, I think the HE221 is a good choice for your budget, it will do what most hybrids do and at lower pricepoint even with all the parts required. Kigunawa and Mamba sell a billet 6+6 for it aswell that reduce(claimed) the already good spool of it and improves airflow slightly, if you want an upgrade later on or go for a bigger upgrade for a TD04(this is already named the super td04). Can also upgrade the thrust bearings, apparently fuken had issues with it somehow ( the compressor map goes up to 4 PR and 37 lb/min).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ujifopc9X74

and here is fuken's vid with a slipping clutch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSg9Pqk0Mmc

Here is a 221 on 20mm stock rods(scary scary) beating a stage 2 S4B5.

221w
Compressor wheel: 6+6 split blade;
Inducer: 43.5mm;
Exducer:61mm;
Turbine wheel: 11 blades;
Inducer: 52mm;
Exducer: 45.7mm;

very small turbo
this desinged high boost 43/61 comp wheel
rated 350 hp ? any time possible k04 hybrid 350hp
but yes cheap

Exactly.

There is another way that blows all these turbos out the water which is a hx35 twinscroll, which is a no brainer if you wanna get a nice upgrade. You will get bored of the hybrids :)

Or a hx30 but rare if wanna keep it down , or slighty more but below hx30, he250wg but very rare.

but high rpm not possible hold the boost
because geometry desinged diesel and the compressor inlet too smal
yes possible make high boost but not possible hold

If you are still talking about 221 then yes ofcourse, it only has a 7cm hotside by default aswell afaik, it will choke after 5500 - which ko4 hybrid wont ;) except yours with machined and bigger hotside too.

You still havent provided any link for purchase though?

what kind of link asking ?
i not buyed turbo I made the turbos


bigger k04 not my version
https://www.turbo-concepts.de/turbo-technik/tc-plus-x-rs-upgrade-lader/1.8t-lader-kits-quer-motoren/460/450ps-version-k04.023-ultimate-quer-upgrade-turbolader-fuer-1.8t-s3-8l/tt-8n/cupra-r-1m

but this very expensive

Ah, thought you bought it, looks similar to AET ones.


^ That is just so not worth it.

These are normally advertised on ebay/more domestic sites as being a few hundred £/$ more but have been used on good high hp builds in the past on none VAG cars. They also seem to be the ones that some tuners are using on the top end cars with conversions still costing £10,000's - still, if you can get away with it I suppose!

Factor in import duties/taxes though if need be;

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/turbo-charger-GT28-GTX2867-GTX2867R-50_1600138970406.html?spm=a2700.galleryofferlist.normal_offer.d_title.60be7a4arYQpp0

https://wxybdl.en.alibaba.com/product/62471563288-218640165/GT3076_GT3076R_GTX3076R_ball_bearing_turbo_Gen1_Gen2_Performance_GTX_Turbo_Garret_Turbocharger.html?spm=a2700.shop_index.82.8.55ce7b9efWLGNQ

Unfortunately, the first link has a min order unit for 10, second has massive shipping, however you can find the same turbos on aliexpress with decent shipping, also genuine or fake holsets for competitive prices.
By the way, Pulsar turbos are great too.

Again, for a ~500 bhp the best "budget" setup you can get is a twinscroll HX35 IMO. Hybrid KO4's for 1k euros + is so not worth it in my opinion.

lol hx35 will spool tomorrow.
500hp on 1.8T totally pointless. Maybe for drag racing when you are limited by engine size or some other weird limitation.

No matter what turbo you fit on that, don't expect any meaningful boost until 4200 rpm, if the 500hp are actually real. And better upgrade the cams/valvetrain to rev to 8000+ rpm if you expect to hit any shifts at all.
This is completely not driveable on the street.

1st link do single unit items. If you've/op got a built engine, big air, big fuel, then it seems pointless choking it with a tiny air pump, let alone paying a fortune having said pump made less strong just for a bit of better flow given options or costs of custom housings etc.

HX35 too big unless as prj said, you mod rpm/valve train. You can get hx30s with small hotsides, I think 7/8cm, 35's & 40's tend to start at 10/12cm.

Pulsar are same too, all made at same factory in wuxi i think when i looked into it. Gtx28 60/63/67 all good for a built engine, these copies being used a fair bit, just different prices stuck on.

Exactly, these hybrids usually keep the circle style exhaust housing , and mostly stock exhaust housing+porting for bigger wheels, which will severly limit flow in high rpm. I have seen twinscroll(proper exhaust maniflolds ofc) HX35 on 1.8 be at decent boost by 4k or before, single scrolls 4200 and so on yes, however why would 500 hp peak at 6-7k be not driveable for a fast street car, you wanna go fast ? You can, wanna daily below 4k? you can. I know nefmoto started with 2.7's but come on. Cheap NA cam combined with VVT is an absolute banger value for a valvetrain upgrade.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I dont really see the point of these expensive hybrid ko4's except the easy of mounting I guess, you are moving the powerband up anyway, will be limited in top end most likely,  reliability is a question ( what kind of chra, uprated bearings do you use etc.), I guess we can agree on that no?

sorry all, the 1.8t is a joke unless your car weighs 1000kg or less

ya, you can motor around town with 300hp or so and still have decent torque, but otherwise... big turbo high hp 1.8t are boring AF IMO

Kek, classic :D If only you didnt have to take the half the car down to do anything in a b5 with a 2.7 :D

No argument there

The 1.8T is just not too interesting when any modern 3.0 TDI is faster with a good stage 1 map.
I wouldn't bother building anything below 600 hp these days, preferrably on automatic transmission. There's just too many stock new cars on the street that are going to wipe the floor with you with zero effort.

Fair point, an Ibiza 6k2 really rips with a 20vt.

Though i'd be more than satisfied with ~320hp on my 1.8T as a daily driver and still maintain low end torque/driveability.

Every now and then i drive a 3.0TDI stg1 quattro machine, but it's like comparing apples to oranges IMO.

1.8T machines are dirt cheap, maintenance and parts are dirt cheap aswell. Driving a Quattro 3.0TDI is not. I, as a student could hardly affort those running costs of an A5 for example.

Exactly, it also highly depends on your area, city and laws. Like for example here after 2L of displacement you start paying multiplicative taxes. A 3.0TDI tax is literally 12x higher than a 1.8L , its complete bullshit I know but it is what is, also there is no way you to get around it unless you wanna be a criminal :) Then area /city I am not sure how many new cars people are buying with power that can keep up with 400-500 hp 1.8T's especially from a roll in your areas but, in my city people are still running around with 1.9TDIs and shit so owning a 400 hp 1.8T would beat or keep up with 98% of the cars probably.

Either way kinda derailed the topic, but interesting discussion.

That is exactly my point, the cost of literally just owning a 3.0TDI machine here is at least 4 times as expensive as opposed to owning an 1.8T. Than we haven't even discussed running costs. I could dream of a owning a 3.0TDI but right now is out of the question. We also still have plenty of 1.9 PD engines around and 1.8T's. Low running cost, still plenty of fun and life in them.

I have decided to save up some more and go the K04-023 hybrid route.

I figured pushing the limits of the rods on K04-001 hybrid would be stupid, and doing rods for just this would also be a waste.

So I'm planning on getting rods, and a hybrid 023 turbo. Anything else I should look out for? I'm hoping to get a stock 023 manifold, as i have no clue where to get a chinese manifold machined properly. Hopefully OEM 023 coolant and oil lines will fit, but time will tell.

Don't really care about raw horsepower, as such a setup should be plenty of power for a daily driven FWD.

I guess it also depends on who is at what stage in life.
Though TBH, if you're able to properly calibrate ME7, never mind do ASM stuff, you shouldn't really be struggling for money, or if you are then you really have the wrong dayjob.

Or the country you living in
Sometimes things are much complex here

My brothers Golf mk1 with 440hp on a GTX3071R spool pretty good, run like 1,5bar (can’t remember 100%)
Pretty driveable for the streets (hes old caddy with 360hp GT3076 was not!)
And run 12 on a 1/4

So as I've now gotten the exhaust manifold and injectors for the 023 swap I'm considering getting everything onto my motor so full 023 hybrid with 550cc @ 4 bar. Then mapping it very safely, run the turbo in for a bit and after a while build the engine (or well, rods).

I have also seen threads of people running 023 hybrids on stock motors. What would i need to look out for mapping wise?

stock bam/amk engine use k04 hybrid 310hp not any problem
not over 400nm

058 rods will handle 350-400 Nm for a while,06a-19mm trapezoidals are cheesecake(tbf both are on these small frames), you really need rods if you plan to run to high boost at max capabalities. Get maxpeedingrods or something and you will be fine and you dont have to worry.

Alright i will take your advice.

For now I've set my sight on a Mamba K04 hybrid claiming 350bhp.

Would you recommend the 19mm maxspeeding rods? As I've heard they could be manufactured wrong. Otherwise I'll have to source some BAM or AGU pistons too.

But then it might be worth to get a more expensive set of rods perhaps. Opinions?

Get em, i know many people running them on 500-600 for years, they are fine. They are all the same chinese h beams anyway.

Just make sure you actually measure the clearances and not throw it together blind, there are some surprises to be had.

Very well, what's another 200-300€ for some rods. Anything else worth replacing with the engine open?

you are change rods better use 20pin
and use good condition  agu or amk/bam pistons new ring
better than any cast 19mm pin auq etc pitsons

but you are possible good controlling boost not any problem 310-340hp original rods /bam or agu/

Think they were saying get the maxspeeding ones over expensive as they hold up. There was a Clubgti thread about chinese rods that said it was bolt failure. I did a load of research on this with parts both in UK & Chinese manufacturing, rod bolt certificate @ Chinese were just a bit less than ARP2000. Couldn't read the writing on the cert but ISO9001 accredited & I know of one UK tuner selling the same rods pretty cheap.
Decent set of 4340's from China + ARP bolts if req'd dep on budget if you need peace of mind, should see you through any road boost. I will say the UK manufacturers had some good material based tech to back up their hybrid alloy but came down to 3 times the price over developing a custom part from China- I guess that's the reality of things nowadays.

Just my 2 £€$

Also, as said, tolerances & putting it together properly with a good tune make more of a difference than slight material differences for longevity!

Actually maxpeeding rods come with genuine ARP 2000s. The only maxpeeding failure I know of thats on forums etc was an assembly issue. Everything short of Carrilo etc are chinese rods. Get them with confidence.

Will probably just get the 19mm ones then. Wouldn't want to be risking blowing my daily on stock bananas. Thanks for tuning in :)

It's not the rod itself that fails on the cheaper rods, it's that the big and small ends can be out of round or have wrong clearance and you either spin a bearing or destroy the piston pin.
If you measure everything when putting it together, then you'll be fine. If not, it's Russian roulette.

Very good information thank you again!

What do you guys think about GT2871r on the 1.8T?

GT28R looks like a waste of time when a K04-023 hybrid can easily do similar numbers, but the GT2871r looks like a ton of fun. Also when looking at kits and parts for a GT2871r it looks like a pretty doable and not extremely expensive swap.

K04-023 hybrid would cost me a bit less, but considering the GT2871r it's potential it leaves me wondering if i wouldn't be disappointed with just a "simple" K04 023 hybrid build. Holset HX35 looks fun too, but i'd prefer having bolt on parts such as manifolds, downpipe adaptors and oil lines etc.

If you are not going bolt on, there is a good choice that makes sense, g25 550. Its the perfect size for the 1.8t. You can get one from pulsar, pretty much only difference being that turbine wheel is inconel not mar-m from garrett.

Disco potato (28rs) are the most common way to upgrade 1.8t back in 00s so there is a tons of it at vortex
71 a bit laggy for 1.8 and id say 60 is the better option here for a daily. Eapecially gen2

023 hybrid is a lottery + as we know tt225 runs lean -> ends up with cracked manifold

Personally i like k04-064 with 2.0 stroker with cr9.0 for a daily car
Amg b03, rs3, s200sx for a 400+ also would be pretty fun and spools @3500
Beware of a diesel holsets. Theyre cheap but old and laggy af

It depends on the way you use the car. If its for a track - small hybrid would be a bad choice and the other hand hx35 are the hell no for the city drive

It will still be my daily that's for sure. I want to make some good power with decent spool. I think the GT2860 doesn't make enough power over a k04 hybrid.

I do agree on the hybrid lottery, but any K04-023 hybrid should easily do 300 at the crank i believe.

I'm going to do some more research on K04 064 builds and big turbo setups. If an 064 can easily push 350 at OEM reliability it's a good contender for sure.

The problem with the hybrid turboes is the a/r stay the same
And for 300+ its a not good choice for sure. 064 or gts are better option here

What would you say an 064 could do power wise, with all bolt on modifications?

Also I'd suppose doing rods (and bearings) will still be a must due to it's low end torque.

Little K03s is starting to sound more like a supercharger so I've put the car in the garage for the coming weeks.

I made up my mind, it's going to be either the GTX2860R or GTX2871R

Prices are so similar the 2871r looks like a real fun toy. I'm currently looking at the PULSAR GTX2871r, i'll need a T25 manifold to go with it and they sell those V band adapters for these turbo's on Ebay. All i'd need is someone to weld me a downpipe adapter and i'd be good to go. How come these Pulsar turbo's can be so cheap, yet they seem to have pretty good reviews compared to like a double the price Garrett.

Only thing i'm not very certain about is what oil, and coolant lines i'd need. I'm completely new to this stuff still so i'll have to do read some more stuff.

G25-550 looks like an extremely fun turbo, except there is tons more information about these 2860 or 2871r turbo's. And they are even a tad cheaper too.

2871 is a horrible turbo, the turbine is undersized for the compressor wheel.
More lag for nothing. It needs GT30 turbine.

It won't make any more power than GTX2860 but it will give more turbolag.

Same like a GTX3076 is very bad.

Noo, trust get the g25 , you will have full spool before 4k or less with vvt with any housing. Its perfect match for stock displacement.

old gt2871r make same power
k04  hybrid

last 1,8t 400hp gt2871r full boost 4500
k04  hybrid 405hp full boost 3500 this k04 bigger hot side turbine than gt28 ant little bigger turbine house like original

1,8t not use any old gt287x turbo not good
maybe best options gtx3067r gen2 but this turbo not possible buy only gen1
g25-550 same size bigger k04 hybrid only housing bigger but not make 550hp 1,8t
approx 400-440
all G series turbo over rated approx 100hp

Thanks for joining in all - so much to take into consideration here

The goal is not ridiculous power, it will be my daily and as such i'd like decent spool time and good power. For now the plan is to chug in rods aswell.

https://www.pulsarturbo.com/product/pulsar-gtx2860r-gen2-turbo/
https://www.pulsarturbo.com/product/pulsar-gtx2871r-ball-bearing-turbocharger/

These are the two that really caught my attention. GTX28 (and G25-550 too) look like a good match. I also quite like the way of power delivery of these big ish turbo's over a hybrid K03/K04. 400hp is more than plenty, the original goal was ~350ish HP.

I kind of made up my mind on the GTX2871r from Pulsar, so you'd say the GTX2860r (Pulsar) would be a better match if i wanted to take a shot at 400 HP at the crank?

G25-550 really looks good, but is it worth over 300$ more than a GTX2871r or GTX2860r?

not buy 2871
2860 or 2867
2867 gen2 not problem 400hp
but better 3067 gen2 but this only possible build your own

2860 all size smaller than g25-550

i think g25-550 or gtx2867r gen2 or K04  hybrid /not k03/04 /

Very well, thanks for your knowledge. I'll probably go with a Pulsar GTX2867r GEN2.

Now i read online that GT2860 doesn't necessarily need forged connecting rods as the torque is low enough on early RPM's. What would you suggest, do them anyway for peace of mind or just send it?

Gt2860 can bend stock rods

2860 will easily destroy rods if you go over 1.5 bar at lower end.

stock k03 in good condition can make bit over 300hp, k03 hybrides probably are able to produce even 400hp, my friend has those but right now he waits for dyno so i cant tell for sure what numbers he will get, but compressor case walls are very very thin in this case, guy who made turbos for me did not wanted to take risk so i went for chinese k04 with melett cores. if you dont shoot for over 300hp i sugest going with k03 with a bit bigger compressor wheel it would give you better performance over 4k rpm and you wont need to replace turbo inlets

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You have mildly put overly optimistic dyno or you are mixing something up. Even a S3 with K04 barely does 280hp.

im talking about 2.7

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Everyone else is talking about 1.8T.

my bad, didn't read all replies

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Sad four banger noises  :P

new to how flashing an all that works for me its more if a matter of me wanting to kno everything  about and how my b6 really works so im hungry to learn...hence why im on here lol bkuz idk shit tbh wen it comes to tuning ect other than i have a 2004 a4 b6 quattro running a awp 1.8t with a eurocustoms stage 2 tune on 22psi with a stock turbo not really sure what the hp/tq ratio would b on that due to not having a dyno any insight on how much more my rods could handle safely....thanks for the insight in advance


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To follow up on this old topic;

Build is almost completed and fitted is;
T25 cast manifold
GTX2867R gen II turbo
Forged connecting rods
Supertech exhaust valves

1.8T AJQ engine with wideband conversion
car is a Seat Leon 4 motion

Engine is now done, just a few finishing touches (intercooler piping & custom downpipe) and it will be up and running... time for some tuning fun.

Did you drop compression? If you plan on running with pump fuel(you prolly do in these times...) 2867 should be fun.

I'm keeping the stock CR

Will be ran on RON98 fuel. Expensive enough haha  ::)

If I'm holding onto this car for some years the future plans include a fully built valvetrain and uprated pistons.

And maybe a DQ250 conversion with some GTX30 framed turbo.

Better find some 105+ octane or WMI. Stock 9.5 will not work, even the 9.0 on AMK/BAM would struggle.