NefMoto

I know this has been done a handful of times before but it seems to be the future swap for Audi S6/S7 owners that plan on going with single turbo setups and other high horsepower builds as the original DSG DL501 cannot hold all the power these cars can make.

I currently have someone that completed his swap and everything is done on the wiring and hardware end, the issue now is getting the car to move. He has a “ECM/TCM incompatible” fault code. My best guess is that the ecu either in the coding or firmware/software is expecting to see the DSG instead of the ZF8. Now the ZF8 was a factory option but for the RS7 which is generally the same engine with some slight differences but still a 4.0T and utilizes the same MED17.1.1 ecu.

If anyone have done this before the information would be great but if not, does anyone have any ideas on how this roadblock could be overcome? The customer thought to flash an RS7 .frf but I’m afraid this might brick the ecu.

Any help or insight is greatly appreciated and hope we can figure this out to help all the future swaps!

(Cross posted on reverse engineering since i wasn’t sure which was the better fit for the thread)

You can look into coding with VCDS in case your ECU support automatic transmission

If there is no option for it, you might want to compare the RS7 file to the S6/S7

You can look into the following:

CWKONFZ1
Com_dGbxCod_C
Tra_stTraType_C
Tra_swtDemType_C

And also ensure the proper can-bus messages for getriebe :

Com_stFrmRxEna_CA
Com_stFrmTxEna_CA

You might want to cross-reference the following in the funktionrahmen:

B_zges
B_gsch
statwkc
B_wkr
B_wk
B_wkauf
B_fku

You will likely need more modifications for the torque converter and might have to play with %MDRED

If the RS7 file has options for both DSG and Auto, you might want to look into maps / constant with multiples options [1, 2, 3, 4 for example]. You can refer to %VARLC (it might be %VARKC for your ECU)


OTP segments are likely differents between both MED17.1.1, if he want to flash a RS7 .frf, I would look to make a bench backup

Don't ever cross post.

How about not posting when you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about? Seems a pattern with you lately.

DL501 holds over 1100nm if you know what you are doing. On the stock gearbox.
It's not like the ZF8 holds much more than that. So how much torque exactly do you want to make where this is not enough? But I guess it was already done before...

RS6/RS7 file can be flashed just fine, but it's not needed. There is S6 and RS6 software with the same a2l id.
Meaning the code is identical.

E.g. 4G0906014D and 4G0906560F.

Compare the two files and you will quickly find what you need to change. If you flash the file as-is the power class will be wrong and you will have immo issues.

However, this is XY Problem (https://xyproblem.info/). You think that just by getting rid of that message the TCU will magically work. But it won't.
Do you realize that the ZF8 has immo/component protection and even after you fix the ECU shenanigans, you still need to overcome that?

Why do you take a "customer" when you have no clue how to do the job? Why do you come on nefmoto with this?
Send the "customer" somewhere where it's been done before and that's it - you're clearly not qualified. A year ago you said you were just learning, and now you want to blow up somebody else's shit...

Lol you seem to be a know it all guru!

These cars have been known to slip the stock clutches at 650NM which is basically anything stage 3 and further. There is upgraded clutch options out there but they only get you to 8-900nm. The torque converter inherently will hold 1000nm stock and there is upgraded options available that will take you even further.

As far as the “customer” he’s just a member of the community coming to me for help and I’m trying to figure out how to do so, I haven’t accepted any money from him. There is only 1 place in the world known that will code it and they want $2500usd which quite frankly yes it will be done correctly but this is steep and in order to help the community figuring out these answer will help everyone.

His car has a single turbo conversion so he’ll have  have a custom file from his tuner already modified for the application so even if flashing an RS file they will go through that and make all the appropriate changes.

In your example what is the A2L ID that you say is the same the 4G0906? Wouldn’t it be dependent on the last 3 digits and letter as well? How do you know this is a S6 and rs6 file without knowing they were pulled from those cars, e.g. if you were looking at a .frf database.

The immo is easily overcome and already done and paired via odis..

I’ve made posts on other forums as well not only nefmoto as I’m trying to get the answers needed. Your trying to hate on me for a post made a year ago about trying to learn is crazy

Isn't this a place where users can share ideas and views on particular subjects, like a forum? I appreciate your inputs and being told I am wrong, and in doing so you provide extra knowledge that can benefits people who thinks differently from you or that come from a different background

Please let me know what is wrong about that and how this forum should be used to exchange ideas. I will listen and be considerate of it for my future posts, I'm not looking to argue or poke you, this is coming from a genuine intent


I only gave information based on my knowledge from doing the inverse of him (auto to dsg). Yes, I do not know what specific firmware he is working with, and I only mentioned OTP segments as a recommendation before he makes any attempts as it could LIKELY be possible they don't match



I feel, he is referring to the following:

D1711A05C000_MY16B0

4G0906014D 0001
4G0906560F 0002

D1711A05C000_MY16B0_040

4G0906014D 0002
4G0906560F 0003

Hey PRJ, thanks once again for dropping some useful knowledge.

I'm following this swap as well, and I, along with other people on the platform have just been researching and scouring trying to find info to help our friend that is in the midst of the swap right now after blowing his dl501. Likely from bad tuning. I am pretty sure this guy is talking about the same person. But yeah like i said in my other thread, we are chasing our tails over here on the 4.0t platform. Bad tuning is killing these transmissions, nobody really knows what theyre doing. Theres clutch upgrades and people still blowing them and DSG shifting like shit on bad software. My friend just like myself has tried over 3 diffferent transmission tuners but to no avail. DSG are not holding what they should or shifting like they should. Theres a lot of us that just like racing and want to go fast, we rely on tuning companies for things we cannot do and when none of the available options know what they are doing everyone is screwed.

My transmission is now damaged too and wont go into 3rd gear. Ill give you some background about where we are on the swap. And i want to reiterate that once we get this figured out we are publicly sharing all the knowledge/info openly with anyone who wants to do the swap, so this is not for profit or for personal gain in any way, more like the blind leading the blind to salvation. I am looking to do this swap very soon so I am watching closely the progress of my friend who is doing it, and doing what I can to try to help, along with some other people who follow the build.

-There are some known working ZF swapped cars that we have seen. We found that these cars have an RS7 SW version on them. As of now the stated or perceived process for the swap was

-Flash S6 ecu with Rs7 SW Version
-adapt ecu and tcu immo
-change some tables inside of DS1 (tuning software)


thats pretty much all the knowledge we had to go off of but I will mention some of the hurdles my friend is facing:


-Friend at dealer with ODIS states they cant flash RS7 SW versions on his ECU with odis
-ECU immo has been disabled with DS1, but if he were to flash an RS7 SW version I'm pretty sure he might lose his DS1 licensing, and ecu immo will be re-enabled and he will not be able to disable it( but this could likely be redone again in ODIS after I'm assuming)

-He received RS7 .FRF files from someone trying to help. Only clues he has about what to do with these is old youtube videos of someone flashing locally with old ODIS version and using .frf files.
-TCU immo has already been adapted successfully with ODIS
- He has a C7.5 (2016) S6 but his transmission is from a C7 (2014) A7, dont know if this matters or is an issue but felt it was important to mention in case it is.


Any help from anyone is much appreciated by all of us and will help us to move forward with these swaps in the future. It will become very popular if we can get this figured out because as I stated earlier, we are all tired of the issues of the dsg/improper tuning and most people simply arent tuners and are powerless and looking for other solutions. So please dont be offended if any of us sound like we dont know WTF we are doing or talking about, we dont  ;D but we are all trying to learn and help each other somehow. Blind leading the blind

Hope that makes sense!

If it can help, here is a Super Mappack for D1711A05C000_MY14B0, a bench read of 4G0906014D 0002, virtual obd file for 4G0906014D 0002 and 4G0906560F 0003

https://mega.nz/folder/BUVVTLLZ#nm9C5LehT8VpiyFY5fmEog (I tried to attach those files to the post, but webserver wouldn't let me upload them)

If I had more time at the moment, I woud be happy to provide more help. OLS project should work on older WinOLS

Thanks, this definitely helps a lot, I will poke around

Completely wrong BS information.
The stock clutches hold 1100 nm just fine. They hold 800nm with just a torque limiter change, above that some other mods are needed. They will only slip at 650nm if you don't tune the trans at all.
Anyone who upgrades the clutches on these does not know what the fuck they are doing and can't tune the trans. There's zero reason to do it. The car will drive like shit and won't hold as much tq as a properly tuned trans.

Don't argue with me, I am the one who made the goddamn files that many of the US tuners are using to get 24 bar on the trans.

Also the ZF8HP is not worse than the ZF6HP in the C6 RS6. They both hold 1200 nm stock.
If you only know how to change the torque limiter, yeah you might have issues, otherwise no.

I gave you the software numbers, take some software versions out of FRF or whatever you want, find the EPK and you will know the A2L ID.
They're both on the same A2L.

No, I am telling you, you are in no position to take any customers because you don't know shit about this platform.
Evidenced by coming up with random TQ numbers that have nothing to do with reality. Also if you have some "tuner" selected to do your single turbo tuning and this "tuner" does not know how to modify the file to take a ZF8HP, then RUN. Because same tuner will probably suddenly tell you that you need an external boost controller to control the turbo, and various other things. Let me guess there have to be 2 lambda sensors and they have to be moved before the turbo? ;)


You post totally random useless information that only confuses people and does not get them any closer to their goal. Why?


No you mentioned the OTP segment because you don't have a clue what's in it. You mentioned something absolutely irrelevant to the topic. Any MED17.1.1 4.0TT ECU is compatible with any file, and you can flash that file OBD. Whether the immo will be on because of wrong power class after the fact is a different story.
I'm going to call you and anyone else out on posting BS every time. For someone who knows this platform intimately it is an absolute no-brainer.

The file ID's you posted based on my hint is the first actually useful information you contributed to this thread.

You are welcome but I don't have time to dig deeper.

DL501 is a very simple transmission and completely repairable. There is zero problems holding the power, but these transmissions need clutch change and mechtronic upgrade to gen2 after about 200 000km. Can be more/less depending on whether the oil was changed correctly in both parts and if it did a lot of stop & go traffic.

The ZF8HP is no magic thing - and if that breaks repairing it is a lot more costly usually.

Once again I am finishing my file dump platform, and all the ZF8 and DL501 will be on there, so you won't have to go to some tuner X to buy shit that does not work.
Although there are a few larger tuners in the US who use my files (or at least my base files to make the correct pressure+tq calibration) and I know for a fact that they don't slip. That said - they also probably charge quite a bit for those files.

Also don't flash RS7 file without disabling or adapting the immo first. Especially if you have only OBD because after an OBD flash with the wrong powerclass the immo will be on and you can not enter bootloader again over OBD when the immo is on unless that's been patched or ECU is X.

And finally my daily is still a 4.0TT. Nuff said.

*Mic Drop*  :o


But anyways, I agree completely about the DSG, in fact I'm one of the ones that loved the DL501 and always spoke highly of it. I do believe that with proper tuning and perhaps a cooling upgrade they could be the best. My issues started when I got over 800 NM. I'm not sure which tuners you are referring to in US but they definitely were not any of the ones I've tried, or anyone I know has unfortunately.

As for the ZF, especially the 8hp55 I dont think its better than the dl501 but it is a much more universally understood transmission and I already have the tools to tune it and have experience tuning those so this will solve all of my issues in one swing. I think thats why a lot of people are looking to do it

After 800nm just lifting the torque limiters is not enough anymore. Messing with adaptations won't help either.

Once I dump my files onto the net, the problem will be solved.
It's simply a trans file + ecu file with KFMIRL/KFMIOP filled correctly, and you don't have to worry about slipping up to 1100nm.
Shift points are easy enough to change after.

I would say that tuning the DL501 is much easier than the ZF8HP. Some things in the ZF transmissions are complete black magic fuckery.

I'm pretty sure there has to be a switch in the ECU for gearbox type as CAN ID 0x641 (Motor_Code_01) contains the gearbox code (MO_Getriebe_Code). 2 = DL501, 11 = AL551__AL951__AL1000_8A

Cant wait, thatll help a lot of us.

But yeah as for the ZF I have plans to push further over 1100 nm, it seems the ZF is more capable with upgrades when necessary, and for DSG you are on your own when you get that point

Does that mean with this switch alone S6 ecu could in theory communicate fine with a ZF? If so that would be nice so we dont have to flash the rs7 SW

Known by whom exactly? I have over a hundred customers running 800+ Nm on DL501 cars with ZERO slip issues, plus quite a few stage 3 4.0 TFSI S6/S7 running in the 900Nm region without any kind of issues whatsoever. I think you're trying to pose as an authority here with absolutely bogus and senseless claims. If the DL501 is tuned correctly and the engine torque is reported properly over CAN, there are no issues like those you're mentioning here. Ever.
As far as the “customer” he’s just a member of the community coming to me for help and I’m trying to figure out how to do so, I haven’t accepted any money from him. There is only 1 place in the world known that will code it and they want $2500usd which quite frankly yes it will be done correctly but this is steep and in order to help the community figuring out these answer will help everyone.

His car has a single turbo conversion so he’ll have  have a custom file from his tuner already modified for the application so even if flashing an RS file they will go through that and make all the appropriate changes.


What does A2L ID have to do with part of the software part number? Nothing whatsoever. Here's proof again that you have no clue wtf you're talking about and that you shouldn't be posting like an ultimate authority on public forums.


Wishing you good luck with pairing used parts with ODIS as of August 2024. but hey, apologies, you know everything better than anyone else, don't you?

In the OLS that was attached earlier there are the following that I would assume does just that:

"3D126A Codiermatrix für Codierzelle Getriebeart"
    Translation: "Coding Matrix for Coding Cell Transmission Type"

"3D1269 Attribut-Byte für Codierzelle Getriebeart"
    Translation: "Attribute Byte for Coding Cell Transmission Type"

"3D1485 Attribut-Byte für Codierzelle Getriebespreizung/-übersetzung"
    Translation: "Attribute Byte for Coding Cell Transmission Spread/Ratio"

"3D1486 Codiermatrix für Codierzelle Getriebespreizung/-übersetzung"
    Translation: "Coding Matrix for Coding Cell Transmission Spread/Ratio"

You might be able to change this on the TCU side instead, see attached for what I believe needs changed to match what the S6 ECU is sending.

Edit: ShrVar_xEngTyp_C is 0x20 in the Euro RS6 4G0927158BD 1006 SW

Nice find, it correlates with the ECU calibrations

Okay I now have all the stuff to complete my ZF swap other than the coding. There has been some very helpful info from Project LS and Artemisia

At this point I am battling with the concept of powerclass as I am using a ZF8HP55 from an Audi A6 NNT transmission code.

I know that the powerclass will mismatch so I am deciding whether it is better to adjust this on the ECU side? (original S6 ECU)

or change these values on the TCU side to match the S6 ECU?

For immo I will be using ODIS. I know it is hit or miss but my friend who is also doing this swapped managed to accomplish immo adaptation with ODIS fine. It seems what is holding him up is the powerclass mismatch.


It seems it may be easier to change the ECU Powerclass to match the transmission, but is there any thing else I need to worry about with this? I know most people use RS7/RS6 transmission for this swap, but I have found that RS7 and S8 all come with 8hp55 as well, except with different trans code like NWK for example vs the a6 NNT. Based on this, I dont see any reason why the 8hp55 from the A6/A7 should not be compatible with this engine, but I will have to see.

If it matters, in the DS1 we change the power class at run time in ECU RAM to 0 and it is an architectural decision we cannot easily back out of. As far as I know it hasn't given us any issues so far across S6 and RS6/7, but thought I should mention it as you did.

just a quick point on odis, i saw in one of the reply's someone at the dealer was not able to flash an frf with odis. As far as i know you can only flash frf with odis engineering standard odis does not allow flashing. Im not sure on a dealer level how to gain  access to a legitimate odis e software but i know with an independent repair license im not authorized to use it only have access to odis service version. I know there are hacked odis e versions available but as with any hacked software trust level is very low.

Thanks for the tip,

the concept of powerclass and all of this is still new to me, so I will run my thoughts by you to see if they seem feasible.

On the ecu side my original plan was to change powerclass and/or the scalars projectls listed on the ecu side while retaining the S6 file.

Since you stated powerclass is set to 0 on ds1 for s6 and rs7, I imagine the powerclass mismatch must not be an issue?

An alternative to my plan was to flash RS7 bin via ds1, with the assumption that RS models are already equipped on the ecu side for Al551 input. Does this seem like a reasonable workaround?

So rs7 bin with ecu immo off + tcu immo off = should work maybe?

If not, I will look into coding the AL551 1st by changing ShrVar_xEngTyp_C on the tcu side to match S6 engine

if thats not enough I will look into trying to get the A6 Transmission to read like an RS transmision if possible, maybe cloning from RS TCM (both al551 might work? maybe?)

of course I will test and see, but just wanted to make sure there are no obvious roadblocks that would standout to someone with experience on this

thanks for the heads up, definitely makes sense why my friends were running into that issue.

We haven't heard of any problems by always having the Power Class set to 0 on original cars, chassis swaps, engine swaps, transmission swaps.

We've had people with ZF swaps ask us to change the ECU to RS7 and we can do that on request. You then update the DS1 and flash the ECU. My only experience of flashing all sorts of non standard versions to MED17 has been to do it through "OBD on the bench", with immo off. If you already have flash access to your ECU with a working immobiliser or the ECU has been bench flashed to immo off, you can flash the immo off file through OBD with the version change, and then ensure that every flash thereafter through OBD retains the immo off setting (which is in the xdf).

The flash of the ECU doesn't change the (emulated EEPROM) coding and I don't have info on what may also need to be changed there.

Bit of a jigsaw to piece together, lots of us have our own little niche on what we change, but I've basically swerved EEPROM and coding except to store ethanol content and map switch in it. As long as we know or contain the effects of coding on the way things like ignition tables are looked up, we don't have to do anything with coding/EEPROM when we flash or calibrate.

Got it, based on the advice i've stumbled upon I have seen most people are running the RS7 ecu file on swap cars even with the S motors so I will likely reach out to set that up.

One thing I just wanted to make sure about, I am currently running an S6 file with immo off (written with full flash fwiw) do you still recommend doing the flash to RS7 file on the bench? I have no issues with this just want to make sure. I will also make sure the immo is set to off on the RS7 file prior to flashing

You can just go right ahead and flash through OBD. It is nice to have bench flashing available for recovery, but when working with a DS1 I would let it do its thing. After you update and get the RS7 software, it will force a full flash to ensure all the segments fit together. After that it will just do the 30 second calibration flashes. Just keep the immo off flag (in the xdf) chain intact always if you need that, break it once and you'll have to bench the immo off to get OBD flash access again.

Awesome I will do it via OBD thanks for the clarification . I will report back about any TCU woes I encounter.

I always tell everyone the best mod I ever bought for this car was the DS1